JUDGE NOT LEST YEA BE JUDGED ????

[buckee]

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"Judge Not lest Yea be Judged ?"

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JUDGE RIGHTLY
(Is not some guy's name)

Jesus commanded men to "judge rightly" and He told them to “judge not.”

Did the Lord contradict Himself? Or does the Bible say more about judging than the general public realizes?

Jesus repeatedly taught men to judge rightly, insisting they “judge with righteous judgment” (John 7:24) and He praised a man who “rightly judged” (Luke 7:43). Paul shamed the Corinthian Christians because no one among them was willing to “judge the smallest matters” (1 Cor. 6:2). As the Apostle wrote, “He who is spiritual judges all things” for “we have the mind of Christ” (1 Cor. 2:15‑16).

Where did we get the notion that men should never judge? Should child-molesters escape condemnation? Should rapists be free from criticism? Should society refrain from judging those arrested for murder? And why would anyone judge others for judging?

Borrowing characters from C. S. Lewis, imagine this dialogue between a junior demon named Wormwood and his wicked uncle Screwtape. This fiendish exchange could have occurred a century ago:

Wormwood: Believers have so many weapons at their disposal. It is difficult to neutralize them. It takes a huge effort just to slow the work of a single Christian.

Screwtape: Your one-on-one approach is inefficient. This is the age of Madison Avenue and mass marketing. If you can undermine their whole group at once, then you’ve accomplished something.

Wormwood: Unfortunately, I’m not highly productive. In the time it takes me to frustrate one believer, I could tempt a dozen heathens.

Screwtape: Don’t lose heart, Wormwood. We are imple*menting a plan to impair the whole Church with a single ploy.

Wormwood: I don’t see how that will be possible. I see Christians dedicated to warning others about ****. It’s all I can do just to get one of them distracted for a short time.

Screwtape: We are going to use their Leader’s own words.

Wormwood: No! Please don’t. Don’t even joke about using His words. I can’t take it.

Screwtape: If you’re ever going to grow up to be an effec*tive demon, you’re going to have to learn to use the Enemy’s words against Him.

Wormwood: It just seems so dangerous. Which words are you going to use?

Screwtape: “Judge not!”

Wormwood: I don’t understand why He would tell them not to judge. That’s confusing. He commanded His followers to rebuke, admonish, and judge hundreds of times in His Book. And that’s what they’re out there
doing. And I might add, it’s causing me grief.

Screwtape: When their Leader said those words, He was speaking to hypocrites. “Judge not… you hypocrite,” as He said later in the same paragraph.

Wormwood: Yeah, but how are we going to use “Judge not” to neutralize the whole Church?

Screwtape: We’re going to get them to ignore the fact that He was talking to hypocrites. He said that hypocrites should not judge, at least not until they stop doing the wrong deed themselves. But we’re going to make them think none of them should judge, ever.

Wormwood: That’s bril*liant… if you can pull it off, that is. I mean, if we can get them to stop judging, then they won’t rebuke the wicked. And they won’t be able to admonish those who are sexually immoral.

Screwtape: It is even more brilliant than you realize. If we can seduce Christians into fol*lowing the instructions for hypo*crites, we will turn them into hypocrites. It’s like government workers who follow foolish rules so precisely they are transformed from human beings into bureau*crats; drones who mindlessly dis*pense red tape regardless of the misfortune they cause. The slave who willingly obeys his master, begins to conform to the master. If believers willingly submit to an instruction for hypocrites, they will conform to hypocrisy. Eventually, with a little evil luck, we might stop them from con*fronting unbelievers altogether because, as you know Worm*wood, to confront requires judg*ing. And if they don’t judge un*believers, they are hypocrites, professing the Gospel but deny*ing its power.

Wormwood: Ha, ha. I’m excited. When do we start?

Screwtape: Everything is underway already. Just do your part.

Wormwood: And that is…?

Screwtape: Make sure your targets read as little of the Book as possible. Don’t get too wor*ried if they stick to their favorite twenty cliché verses. But make sure they remain ignorant of most of the Word.

Wormwood: Master, you are brilliant.

Screwtape: You can call me Master if you want, but don’t let the boss hear you.

A lie paralyzed the Church. God warns against “hypocrisy” commanding men to “abhor what is evil” (Rom. 12:9). Yet to abhor evil, someone must first judge evil. Thus, unable to judge, large numbers of Christians become hypocrites by obeying the Hypocrites Golden Rule. Since the hypocrite doesn’t want to be judged, he judges not, as Jesus said, “Judge not… you hypocrite” (Mat. 7:1, 5 KJV; Ezek. 16:52). For “judge not” (Mat. 7:1-5) is simply a hypocrites application of do unto others as you would have them do unto you (Mat. 7:12). “For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged” (Mat. 7:2). Judge others as you would have them do unto you inverted is Judge not if you do not want to be judged.

Christ kept repeated this theme in His ministry. “Hypocrites,” Jesus said, “why, even of yourselves, do you not judge what is right?” (Luke 12:56‑57). Still, His own followers have mostly ignored the Lord’s harsh rebuke: “Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to [judge, i.e., to] remove the speck out of your brother’s eye” (Mat. 7:5). “Judge Not” is the Hypocritical Oath.

“Judge Not” is hypocrite haven. He who lives in a glass house should not throw stones. Such Christians should relocate. They should move into “the temple of the great God… being built with heavy stones” (Ezra 5:8).

Christians live in the “building” for which Christ is “the chief corner stone” (Eph. 2:20). And if that Stone falls on someone it “will grind him to powder” (Mat. 21:44; Luke 20:18; cf. Ex. 32:20). Better to be judged by a Christian than crushed by Christ.

Hollywood, Hillary, and Homosexuals repeat the phrase like a mantra, judge not, judge not, judge not, until the masses are mesmerized. Jesus did not intend this.

Scripture deals with topics that range from simple to advanced truth. Milk is for babes in Christ; meat is for men of God. The question of whether or not Christians should judge is milk. It is preschool. The newest believer taught any of a hundred passages would immediately understand that he must judge. Judging others is fundamental. It is not a difficult concept and should in no way be controversial.

“Everyone who partakes only in milk is unskilled in the Word of righteousness, for he is a babe” (Heb. 5:13). The Church, today lactose intolerant, has trouble even with milk.

Extreme ignorance of the Bible has crippled the Church. And that paralysis slows every denomination by hurting local fellowships. What is the percentage of Christians who have succumbed to the “Judge not” deception? Is there even one percent of believers who have not fallen for that diversion? A quarter century of observation suggests to this author that probably 99 out of 100 believers misquote Jesus by repeating the “Judge not” mantra. Believers need to turn from this sin and ask God for wisdom to keep from being so easily deceived again.

Curse God and die! Is that good advice? Word for word, it is in the Bible. Job’s wife counsels her husband to “Curse God and die” (Job 2:9). Many verses, if ripped out of context, can ruin lives. Judas “went and hanged himself” (Mat. 27:5) and as Jesus said “Go and do likewise” (Luke 10:37). The believer who lacks a hunger for God’s word is susceptible to the most absurd dangers.

An October 1996 letter in the Rocky Mountain News expressed a typical judge-not sentiment. It advocated incarceration and not the execution of murderers, who are made “in the image of God” as it would be “wrong to put the image of God to death.” However, the writer never addressed the incongruity of putting the image of God in jail.

“Judge not” is the prayer of those who want to hide light under a basket. The cliché describes salt, which has lost its flavor, which no longer seasons or preserves. This seductive lie takes its victims out of ministry. As spectators on the sidelines, they only watch the spiritual battle. But they are in a comfort zone. Apathy is the craving. “Judge not” is the shirking of responsibility.

To the Jews God said, “If you will walk in My ways, and if you will keep My command, then you shall also judge My house” (Zech. 3:7). Are members of the Body of Christ today less capable than Israel whom God commanded to “judge righteously” (Deut. 1:16‑17; Lev. 19:15)? Moses appointed the head of one out of every ten households as a judge (Ex. 18:25; Deut. 1:15). Should Christians toss out the entire book of Judges? Should America eliminate all judges, or should just the Christian judges resign? Should believers ignore Paul’s admonition:

“Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren?” (1 Cor. 6:2‑5).

Notice that Christians “will judge the world!” (1 Cor. 6:2). For Paul said, “if the world will be judged by you…” God the Judge delegates judgment to His people. Even spirit beings will submit to believers: “Do you not know that we shall judge angels?” Then and now, believers should “judge... according to My judgments” (Ezek. 44:24) as God said. The Almighty commits judgment into the hands of His obedient servants (Rev. 20:4).

If God were the only judge, the sins of all men would be “clearly evident, preceding them to judgment” (1Tim. 5:24a). But because human beings will judge their fellow men on Judgment Day, therefore the sins “of some men follow later” (1Tim. 5:24b). The human judges will already have been aware of the sins of notorious men. But they will not learn of the sins of obscure men until they are revealed at Judgment Day. Also, these human judges will then become aware of the sins of leaders, celebrities, and even family members who had carefully concealed their wickedness.

Enoch, the seventh from Adam, may have known of this. For he said “the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints to execute judgment on all” (Jude 14‑15). The Lord with His saints will judge the world!

Jesus too said, “The men of Nineveh will rise in the judgment with this generation and condemn it...” (Mat. 12:41). And as Solomon wrote, “jealously is a husband's fury; therefore, he will not spare [the adulterer who violated his wife] in the day of vengeance. He will accept no recompense nor will he be appeased” (Prov. 6:34‑35). God gives the responsibility for vengeance, condemnation, and judgment to His servants for “every tongue which rises against you in judgment you shall condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord” (Isa. 54:17).

Today, many believers are effectively saying, “Lord, thanks but no thanks. I’ll pass on that judgment duty.” But Paul responds, Start judging now, because you will need the practice (1Cor. 6:2‑5). Remember, “He who is spiritual judges all things. For... we have the mind of Christ” (1 Cor. 2:15‑16). And God will reward those who judge, and do the hard work: “Those who rebuke the wicked will have delight, and a good blessing will come upon them.” (Prov. 24:25).

Would slain Columbine high school student Danny Rohrbough be forgiving or judgmental toward his unrepentant murderers? A People Magazine photo in Nov. 1999 shows his family and friends answering that question. They quote Rev. 6:10 in which martyred Christians in heaven ask God to “avenge our blood.” Judge-not Christians condemn the martyr’s call for vengeance, but never the murderer.

Hopefully the Church will see Judge Not headed for retirement replaced with Judge Rightly. For as Jesus said, “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment” (John 7:24).

Bob Enyart
Pastor, Denver Bible Church
PO Box 583
Arvada CO 80001

<font color="red"> Just something for all you Christians and non-Christians alike who love to use the line " JUDGE NOT LEST YEA BE JUDGED" to chew on.</font>

[Andrea]

I judge this to be a good post buckee!!! http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
A little lengthy, but good!

[hutchies]

When I say I am not one to judge anybody I simply mean that what I am thinking is not coming out of my mouth. Does this mean that if a child molester moved into my neighborhood I would let my daughter run around. Heck NO, But unless I have a direct conflict with him I have not reason to talk badly about that person. Just because I don't agree with some opinions here I do still respect the right they have to that opinion. So yes I do judge but not publicly.

[wtnhunt]

I think a bigger problem is with people pre judging people based on what they think, not on what they know. I have no problem judging in my mind the actions of someone that I know to be true. Guess that might kind of be considered as you say judging rightly.

[DWC]

so where does forgiveness fit in to all of that was it not jesus who said hate the SIN not the sinner now i'm may still be a pup in this world and i do lose my temper at some of the things that happen to christians and non-christian. i think some in this world have forgoten that there are battles going on all around us between gods forces and satans. or am i wrong

[TreeStandBowHunter]

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DWC, Jesus did NOT die for everyone. Neither does He forgive everyone,


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Ok, now I am really confused. Hey Buckee, is this true. Whatcha think about this. If Buckee says it's good to go, then I will believe it http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif Now IT REALLY don't look good for the home team

[LifeNRA]

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Someone is leading you astray with false teaching.

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This is the difference in many religions, not all see the same way. Many do, but many dont! You have to remember that there are other religions out there that dont follow the way you were taught! But you can never say mine is right, and yours is wrong! Otherwise, you wont be any difference than Al-qauda!(sp?)

[slugshooter]

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DWC, Jesus did NOT die for everyone. He only died for His Elect, that is those he chose before creation...eph 1:4-5. Neither does He forgive everyone, by the fact that bu His Own Word He claims that many will perish.

Someone is leading you astray with false teaching.

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Thank God you don't have a national outlet to spread that message. You would have singlehandedly set the movement of Christianity back 100 or so years.

Jesus did die for the sins of all mankind. Whether or not someone accepts his sacrifice is a whole other ballgame.

As far as the original topic, God has set aside certain people to be the judges of man, just as he has set aside people to govern over man. It is not for me to judge another person because as of yet, God has not put me in the position, and probably never will, in fact, I am hoping he puts me in one of the governing slots at some point in the future. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif My point is this, I may not be nearly as religious as I was in my youth, and I am definitely no fan of George W. Bush,(shocker huh?) but God has placed him in the position he is in for a reason that is known only to God, God's ways are not our ways. I respect the position that GW Bush has acquired in this life, even if I don't respect the man himself.

[buckee]

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DWC, Jesus did NOT die for everyone. He only died for His Elect, that is those he chose before creation...eph 1:4-5. Neither does He forgive everyone, by the fact that bu His Own Word He claims that many will perish.

Someone is leading you astray with false teaching.

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Well your half right yewbowman.
Yes Jesus did die for the elect and the elect have been known by God from the beginning, (because God knows all things) and not all will be saved.
But...Jesus did die for the sins of the whole world. Yours, mine, his and hers. Will all accept his forgiveness and put their trust and faith in him ??...NO, of course not. Too bad.
Jesus said, I stand at the door and knock. If any man hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and sup with him. Now, even though God knows before hand whether we will accept him or not, that doesn't mean we don't have the freedom to chose between salvation and the world.
God created us with a free will and never takes that away from us, even after we come to believe in him as our Lord and saviour. Yes, he knows who his elect will be, but we do not, nor will we know until the day of judgement, But we can be assured, that if we confess our sins, be willing to turn from our sins and trust in the shed blood of our Lord and saviour on the cross of Calvary, we are indeed saved by the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Only God knows who these saints are for sure, because he knows the secrets things in each persons life and knows if they truly believe in him or are just using his name as an excuse to continue sinning purposefully.

You must be a Jahovah's Witness, am I right.

You must be born again to inherit the Kingdom of God man. Salvation is available to all that repent and believe.

[Mathews XT Man]

AMEN Buckee!!! I I must say..yewbo's take on things didnt set right with me either...hey, Christ even died for good ol yewbo....

[TreeStandBowHunter]

I knew I could count on Buckee....Onieda, your funny man

[slugshooter]

yewbowman, with all due respect, you just opened a can of worms with that post. You say you follow the words and teaching of Christ but yet you quote scripture and teachings that were written by men who lived after Christ was crucified.

I can say with full confidence that Buckee does not need instruction in the ways of the Christian walk of faith from you, especially since you seem to be so knowledgeable of who and who is not going to heaven and who and who is not a good christian even though you are just as human as the rest of us.

Do us all a favor, drop the godawful self-righteousness, cause to be honest, it's a little too much for us all. Since you say the bible was not written for the sinner and since you say that everybody has been preordained for heaven or ****, then why doesn't everyone just wise up and shut all the churches down, because since we have all been predestined for heaven or ****, then there's no reason for preachers or churches to exist.

[horst]

Thats what I love about religion, everyones got there own spin on it http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[buckee]

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To suggest that all men where cleansed of sin by Jesus is totally false

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I never said all men were cleansed of sin by Jesus, I said Jesus died for the sins of the world. Please don't twist my words. Jesus may have taken the sins of the world on himself, but that doesn't mean the whole world is now saved. We are not cleansed of your sins until you confess your sins and believe. The gift of salvation is free for the asking, but who will ask?? Who will hear God's voice speaking to their hearts? Why would the apostles even bother preaching the good news of Jesus Christ, unless there was something the world needed to hear?


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I do not think you grasp the concept of Gods judgement Buck. God requires a blood sacrifice for sin. This is why the Patriarchs of old sacrificed lambs at temple, so to appease Gods demand for atonement. However, under the old covenant law, man was incapable of atonement, hence God Himself, became the Lamb that would stand in stead for his Children.

[/ QUOTE ]
I grasp that just perfectly. I don't think you have grasped what that means. God required a blood sacrifice in the old covenant with his people (Israel) for the atonement of their sins and God himself became the sacrificial lamb for us all, gentiles included in the new covenant.
First Peter 1:2 says that believers were brought into a covenant of obedience to God that was sealed by blood--the death of Jesus Christ. When we accept the sacrifice of Christ on our behalf, we are covenanting obedience to God. We are consecrated to obedience by the blood of Christ.
Inorder to accept something, it requires free-will.

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Also buck you need to understand that the Bible is written to Christians to grasp, NOT the unsaved. In Paul's letter to the saints {Christians} in Rome he CLEARLY says........***God commendeth his love toward us , in that , while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us***.....Notice that Buck???. Paul said *us*, meaning Christians, not the unsaved.

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Yes, the bible does address believers for the most part. It is afterall where we go to get our nourishment. But it also addresses the unbelievers, for faith cometh by hearing, and hearing from the word of God. Paul was reminding his brothers and sisters in Christ not only of God's love for them, but how he died for them, in their place, before they had even heard of him. He was reminding them where they came from, who saved them and how he saved them.
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you need to understand that the Bible is written to Christians to grasp, NOT the unsaved.

[/ QUOTE ] So then how do you become a Christain apart from hearing God's word from the bible if it is not mean't for unbelievers?? http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

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Where you are being confused is, is that someone, perhaps a professional preacher, or clergymen has taught you that all are cleansed by Jesus, and by "accepting" the cleansing, you get your ticket stamped. Think about Buck, if all men had their sins washed clean by Jesus at Golgotha, would they not automatically "accept" Him???

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I'm not confused at all, but you are so sure of yourself, I guess I must be...LOL. You sure sound confused though.
I never said that all are cleansed by Jesus and all we have to do is accept our cleansing... http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif I said that Jesus died for the atonement of our sins, but inorder for that atonement to be of any effect on us as individuals, we must first recognize that we are sinners, repent from our sins, and believe in what Jesus has done on our behalf and follow him. That's a far cry from what you just said.

If a judge said to all those present in his courtroom, that he would pardon anyone who entered his courtroom, confessed what they had done, and asked for a pardon...would that mean that anyone who didn't come to his courtroom would also be pardoned ??...of course not!!! And how would anyone know that the Judge was handing out Pardons, unless someone told them so ??

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Let me ask you, what made you confess your sins???. Remember before you answer, Scripture says that ALL men seek NOT God, and that ALL have turned away, and that ALL men were dead in heart, and condemned to the second death. Now Buck, what made you confess your sins Buck?.........

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Nothing made me confess my sins, however the Holy Spirit convicted me and convinced me of my sins and I had the choice of either heading to that conviction and call by God. and trusting in Christ or ignoring it and continuing on the way I was going.
So nothing made me do anything, ..I'm too darned stubborn for that. I did however reach a point in my life where I wanted to know the truth and I started seeking God. I realize now that he was also seeking me, but I just wasn't listening. Funny thing is, I had my back turned on him, because as soon as I turned around to seek him, he was there, ready and waiting to and put his arms around me and guide me closer to him.
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You also said........
"""Only God knows who these saints are for sure, because he knows the secrets things in each persons life and knows if they truly believe in him or are just using his name as an excuse to continue sinning purposefully."""

This is untrue Buck, because Paul, a wretched sinner man, saved by God addressed numerous Christian Churches calling them "saints", and the "Elect" of God. Paul tells us to make our "Election" clear, and known. The fruit Buck, its all about the fruit. Good fruit is evident to even heathens.

[/ QUOTE ]
Paul also warned the saints to hold on to their faith and be steadfast.
Yeah..that's right, and God had to blind Paul to get his attention, or are you saying that wasn't necessary since Paul was already one of the elect while he was killing Christians ??
Yes Paul calls the churches "saints" and the "elect" but even Paul warned the churches ("saints" and the "elect") about the wolves and false teachers among them. I know many Christians who I can say that I know I will see in Heaven someday. I don't think I could say that about an entire congregation of any church though. Only God knows that one. You obviously misunderstood what I was saying or feel commissioned by God to twist the words of this saint to confuse the bystanders. I sense the spirit of confusion here.
And yes, I know all about the fruit, and I must say, that I realize my branches aren't exactly overburdened with it, but then you haven't known me long enough to judge my fruits, nor me yours.

Are you a scribe or a Pharisee by any chance?? http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

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""You must be born again to inherit the Kingdom of God man. Salvation is available to all that repent and believe."""

The problem is my friend, you think your human belief is the cause of your salvation, while I know my belief is the EFFECT of my Salvation.


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So what your saying here is that you were always saved, but just didn't realize it until you realized it....LOL. Your contradicting yourself now...be careful
No, my human belief is not the cause of my salvation. The blood of Jesus is the cause of my salvation. I work for the Lord because I am saved, not for my salvation.

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I pray this edifies you Buck

[/ QUOTE ]
With all due respect, it didn't edify me much at all. I don't really like confusion served with bible. I sure would like to know how you were saved if you never used your free-will to come to Christ at any time. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Let me ask you something?

What is the "Good news" and what is "the gospel" that we should be preaching ??...in your opinion.
And how were you saved ?? and when were you saved ??

You remind me of a painter I know who thinks he's Jesus Christ. He keeps wanting me to follow him. He even stops by my jobsight to preach to me. All he keeps saying when I tell him he's delusional is " I am Jesus ...your looking at me" http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

by the way, do you hunt?

[TreeStandBowHunter]

The heck with all these "with all due respects"....I am still trying to find out what's going to happen to ol' Mikeee here when he see's the light. From what I gather from yewdude, I am going to **** or I am "Worse than a non-believer" because I keep my wife at home to care for the kids and I prevent her from going out and making money. Ok, maybe I blew that up a bit but that's pretty much what he was saying. So that STILL leaves the question...Am I going to take one for the team or what?

BTW, can someone translate this for me JUDGE NOT LEST YEA BE JUDGED ...thanks

[dg]

http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif These type of discussions are funny. Every persons religious beliefs is right and all others are wrong. Enjoy it while you can. Everyone's days are limited. You are in heaven now. If you think not, you can't see the forest for the trees. Don't try to humanize it.

[buckee]

"JUDGE NOT LEST YEA BE JUDGED" well mike some folks think it is there ticket to salvation. They figure if they become the closed mouth live and let live folks and not buck the changing world and all that is in it, that they will not be judged when the time comes, because they didn't judge anything at all. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Geesh, if that were true, you'd just have to keep your mouth shut and do whatever you want to do. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

The Holy spirit helps you to judge things rightly for yourself and others Mike. You can try it on your own, but I wouldn't advise it...

[TreeStandBowHunter]

See, that's why I like you Steve. Your able to come down to my level and spell things out for me http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Other people like to come in here and use all these big phrases and stuff that boggles my mind and then they make you feel stupid by doing it and then they think they are better than you because they are able to do it....if that makes any sense. You all have a good night. Hopefully I won't see the "Big light" tonight....at least not until we get all this worked out http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif You know they say it's all in a days work...well, they are right. Today I been told I am pretty much going to **** and that I am worse than a "Non-believer". Makes me not want to go to sleep http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[VermontHunter]

WOW !!! This stuff is way beyond my comprehension.... http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

And Mike anyone like yourself that puts his well being in jepordy for others,,,in my book as a first class ticket to the pearly gates above..... http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

As for this other stuff all I have to say is we will all have the answers when our time comes,,,until then all we can do is be as true and honest as we are capable of as human beings..... http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

SORRY,, Steve I had to pop in ... http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif,,and I did tread lightly... http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[buckee]

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Nowhere in the Bible does God say He "created us with freewill". That is simply your words, or the words of a hirling minister. I challenge you to prove me wrong.

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Your the first Calvanist I have ever encountered, so bare with me.

Man Possesses Free Will
There are myriad Bible passages that present the reception of God's blessing or cursing as contingent upon human choice. This is epitomized in Deuteronomy 11:26-28, which says: "Behold, I set before you today a blessing and a curse: the blessing, if you obey the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you today; and the curse, if you do not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside from the way which I command you today, to go after other gods which you have not known." When Joshua challenged the people to "choose you this day whom you will serve,"5 he was addressing individuals who were free to make a moral decision. This is no place made clearer than in Matthew 23:37, where Jesus cried: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!" The Bible teaches conclusively and emphatically that man has free will.

God's Will Can Be Rejected
As the passages cited above teach, not only does man possess free will, but he can actually exercise this free will in a way that defies God's will. In other words, although God is Sovereign Ruler, He does not always get everything He wants. To the Calvinists, such a statement is totally unthinkable and completely contrary to their concept of God's sovereignty. Even so, in Isaiah 65:12, God said, "Therefore I will number you for the sword, and you shall all bow down to the slaughter; because, when I called, you did not answer; when I spoke, you did not hear, but did evil before My eyes, and chose that in which I do not delight." Again, in 2 Peter 3:9, it is plainly stated that God is "not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." If, as the Calvinists claim, God decrees everything that happens, and if, as the apostle Peter claims, God is not willing that any should perish, then all mankind will ultimately be saved. But even Calvinists reject the idea of Universalism. What, then, is their solution? Simply this: They must come to understand that Calvinism is not just anti-scriptural, which is certainly bad enough, but is anti-God as well. Calvin's god (with a little 'g') is not the God (with a big 'G') who has revealed Himself in the Bible. Calvin's god, apart from anything the creature may or may not do, predestines some to eternal life and others to eternal damnation. However, the God who has revealed Himself in the Bible actually pleads with His creatures to obey His preceptive will so they can be saved. This God, as opposed to Calvin's god, "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Is this proof enough, or should I give you more. The bible is full of references to God's people exorcising their FREE-WILL to either obey or disobey God.
I'm not the kind of guy who likes pushing bible verses back and forth to someone to prove a point, but I realize that God's word is always the final authority on things. God gave me my own voice also, just like he gave all the great men in the bible their own voices. If God can't speak through you, without always quoting scripture, then maybe the Holy Spirit is not active in you. You sure know the bible well though, almost like a broken record.

[wtnhunt]

[ QUOTE ]
Jesus did die for the sins of the whole world. Yours, mine, his and hers. Will all accept his forgiveness and put their trust and faith in him ??...NO, of course not. Too bad.
Jesus said, I stand at the door and knock. If any man hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and sup with him. Now, even though God knows before hand whether we will accept him or not, that doesn't mean we don't have the freedom to chose between salvation and the world.
God created us with a free will and never takes that away from us, even after we come to believe in him as our Lord and saviour. Yes, he knows who his elect will be, but we do not, nor will we know until the day of judgement, But we can be assured, that if we confess our sins, be willing to turn from our sins and trust in the shed blood of our Lord and saviour on the cross of Calvary, we are indeed saved by the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is also what I have learned and how I understand. Could not agree more with what Steve says here.

I have heard the argument that the "meek shall inherit the earth", and that those meek are a specific set number of people selected by God. If my memory serves me right it was like 100,000. Do you not think there have already been 100,000 already selected. If that is the case and this is what you believe then why try, and does that not then become some sort of competetion? And to inherit the earth, is heaven going to be here on earth? That entire perspective just goes against what I believe.

I had an interesting conversation on that topic with some door knockers in my teenage years claiming to be there to help save me, feeding me this line of crap. I think before the converation was over with I changed their perspective.

Christ died for us all, whether we chose to accpet him and ask his forgiveness as Steve says is of or God given free will.

[horst]

[ QUOTE ]
"""Thats what I love about religion, everyones got there own spin on it """

horst, I could not agree more. Religion is an evil thing. It causes men to fly airplanes into buildings, and to invade oil producing nations. However, Faith in Christ creates a seperation from the world, and the prosititute known as religion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa slow down there, I didnt say it was an evil thing, its just easily twisted to suit peoples purposes.Religion didnt fly those planes into those buildings, people did.I was simply saying that the way a lot of the bible reads it leaves so much room for interpretation that people can more or less take whatever they want away from it.

Look at the title of this thread, Judge not lest yea be judged.What I took out of what I read is its ok to judge some things, situations, events, things of that nature, but I still dont see where its saying it ok to go around judging other people.Kinda like saying not go through life ignoring whats going on around you.I could be wrong, someone else might read something very different into it.One things for sure, none of know for sure whos right or wrong in most of these things.

[LifeNRA]

I think its time to lock this thread! LOL!!! http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[TreeStandBowHunter]

[ QUOTE ]
.Religion didnt fly those planes into those buildings, people did

[/ QUOTE ]


Chris, I think this is like the first time I ever dis-agreed with you http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif...........Actually, religion had a BIG part of it. Those people are nuts and it boils down to their religion. Yeah, people physically flew the planes but it was because of their screwed up religion that they did it. You all think only the terrorists and insurgents think nutty, it's the whole community over there. Read the book "An Arab Mind" and you'll see what I am talking about.

Hey Horst, I could of did what yewbowman always does...."And you said" http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[horst]

So you said http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
.Religion didnt fly those planes into those buildings, people did

[/ QUOTE ]


Chris, I think this is like the first time I ever dis-agreed with you http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif...........Actually, religion had a BIG part of it. Those people are nuts and it boils down to their religion. Yeah, people physically flew the planes but it was because of their screwed up religion that they did it. You all think only the terrorists and insurgents think nutty, it's the whole community over there. Read the book "An Arab Mind" and you'll see what I am talking about.

Hey Horst, I could of did what yewbowman always does...."And you said" http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I know they did it in the name of religion, but that dont change the fact that theyre nuts http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gifSriously though, I understand what your saying, people doing things in the name of religion throughout history have killed more people than the plauge.But if it hadnt been for religion they woulda done it anyway, just used a different reason.Its human nature to goto war, religions probably just the easiest tool to use to convince them to go.

I dont agree with yewbowman though that religion has much part in why were in Iraq, I think that was purely political thinking there.

[buckee]

You may not call yourself a Calvanist, but you indeed are one.

I'm done with this conversation, because you are obviously hung up on predestination and twisting of everyones words to make yourself look more holy and acceptable.
According to the way you have twisted scripture to suit your predestined election, there is nothing anyone can do exept live life and let God be God and select those he wishes. There is no need to Preach any Gospel really, (according to what you believe), so why do you bother.
According to what you believe, God will take care of all that himself, since we have no free-will of our own, so there really isn't any reason we should even be having this conversation, or have a brain for that matter.
According to the way you have twisted God's truth, Adam and Eve were created and predestined to sin. They had no choice to disobey God, but instead were predestined to disobey him.
According to your twisting, Man is nothing more than a predestined robot, either preprogramed for distruction, or preprogramed for salvation.
You have stripped God of his Love for us, You have made the crusifiction of Jesus rather meaningless, and you do nothing more than turn people from God instead of beig an instrument of his Grace to bring people closer to him.
I agree with you on a few points, but you take each one over the edge of misunderstanding, and reduce humanity to nothing more than preprogramed robots, and God to nothing more than a creator, who created us for his amusement.
According to you, I am nothing more than a false prophet, and am predestined to be so, because I believe God made us with the same free-will that he has. I am predestined for destruction and there is nothing I can do to change that, unless of course I have been preordained for salvation and don't know it yet. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif.
I'm just a dumb redneck, who has deluded himself into thinking that God, in his infinate love and mercy, has saved me from my sins, through faith in Jesus Christ, and not of myself, but by the gift of God (the blood of Jesus).
I agree with you on one thing in particular and that is that God's word is the ulimate authority, and there is a lot of turning from God's word going on in the mainstream denominations today, but that is not to say that Gods children are not among them.
[ QUOTE ]
The Bible makes it clear how I was saved. I was Chosen to be a Christian before creation. Jesus went into the second death to make pure for entrance into His Holy Kingdom, and He revealed this to me through the Holy Ghost, at which time I then believed, and confessed the sins in which He died for, and began to live with the Mind of Christ. Its all in the Bible for those who are able to read it with Spiritual eyes.


[/ QUOTE ]
"at which time I then believed, and confessed the sins in which He died for" No free-will required eh. You could have turned around and said no thanks. The truth has been revieled to many people who have said "no thanks, not for me"
I see what you mean though, that once the truth has been revealed, you'd be a fool to say no...LOL
You've just carried this predestination stuff over the edge of what God's word is actually saying.
I also agree with you on the fact that I don't understand why God would save a piece of crap like me, but that's why he sent his Son to die in our place.
(when I say "our place", I mean our as in a believer and our as in a non-believer, who will hear that truth)

I'll roll over now and let you tear someone elses words apart.
Cya

[Gator]

All I know, is I am more confused after reading this post than I ever was before!!!! This stuff is to deep for me!!

[Gator]

No thanks yobow, I believe what I believe, and that's all I'm gonna believe!!

[buckee]

The spirit of confussion does that Gator. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[buckee]

I know I said I was done, but I can't help myself...LOL
You should have listened to that Baptist minister.
[ QUOTE ]
What he said , very much reminds me of what you are saying. Scripture is only confusing to those who are being fed the doctrines of men. In other words if you here someone tell you for years that they "choose" Christ, it is very confusing when someone opens a Bible, and quotes Jesus saying ...*Ye have NOT chosen me, but I have chosen you*. You see this "spirit of confusion" you speak dwells in the meeting places of organized religion, where the doctrines of men are taught as gospel.

[/ QUOTE ]

The one thing incredible about God's word is that it is a two-edged sword. When God speaks it cuts through spirit, flesh, the past, the present and the future.
Rightly dividing Gods word is the key here, instead of getting hung up on the word "choose", even though there is truth in what your saying.
In that passage Jesus is talking to his diciples and expaining to them how he hand picked each one of them.( Even Judas, who betrayed him)
He also warned them:
"10.If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
.11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full."
and
"14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you."

Those little "Ifs" suggest that man has a choice my friend. If they were predestined in your definition of the word, then Jesus would have replaced the "If Ye's" with "you will"



".26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

It would be easy to misguide someone and say Jesus was, about the beginning of the world here, but he is talking talking to his deciples about the beginning of his ministry with the deciples.

"22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

It would also be easy to misguide someone by saying man had no sin (no such thing) until Jesus told them they did, from reading this passage, but what he is actually saying is that they were not aware of their sins, until he reminded them of them and revealed them to them.
They didn't like that much http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

When God says "If you obey me" or "If you disobey me" He is giving us a choice. That means that you have choices to make in this life. You don't have to be a bible scholar to figure that one out.
You are right when you say believing isn't what saves me. If I believed in a false God, there is nothing there that saves me.
Your confusing an act of working for your salvation, with an act of making a decission for Christ, which is an act of the heart, mind and spirit. Yes it is Jesus alone that saves me, his blood that covers my sins. There is nothing I can do by means of an act of works, that can earn me my salvation. If I work for the Lord after I am saved, it is because of my salvation, not for it. I cannot will myself to be saved....that is correct. It is God who saves me by Grace through Jesus Christ. My salvation does indeed rest in Jesus, but, no doubt, you will correct me here as well.

I'm done with this whole preprogramed, predestined, robot man issue. Your wrong about it and yet right about maholerny things.
You have sat in Judgement of all Christian denominations, which is not all wrong, mind you, because I too have a few biblical beefs of my own, but you have forsaken many brothers and sisters in Christ and a lot of potentially new converts to Christianity, because of your "Predestined stance" and "Man has no will of his own stance".
I'm not a preacher or anything...just a saved redneck sinner, who loves to share what God has done for me, with others.

[TreeStandBowHunter]

Gator, you said"""" http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
No thanks yobow, I believe what I believe, and that's all I'm gonna believe!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Buckee you said "I am through with this post"

Horst, you said "These people are nuts"

http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Sorry, couldn't resist. I bet that server space is about over heated with "You saids"

[slugshooter]

yewbowman, you said.......(sorry guys, I had to jump on this bandwagon. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif)



[ QUOTE ]
Buck, if you would have actually read Deuteronomy, you would have known that Joshua was adressing NO ONE, because Joshua was not the writer, but MOSES was. If you don't read Scripture, how can you exppect to teach?


[/ QUOTE ]

Now, I don't know Buckee personally, but have gotten to know him pretty well through these forums and am pretty sure he has read the Book of Deuteronomy several times as well as the whole bible. So this is probably one of the most assinine statements I have ever read on here. You aren't doing yourself well on here yewbowman so far, you certainly aren't trying to get to know any of us, you seem to be more content with criticising, judging, and being downright arrogant with people on here. Heck, the only person I can think of that got so many negative responses to what they said quicker than you was probably me http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif but I don't think I managed that nearly as fast as you, plus, they were over my political beliefs and we were in an election year, so, it's all water under the bridge now, most of the guys have figured out that I'm not as liberal as they thought I was.

[dogdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
Gator, I do understand. If ever you have any questions, or if anything I say is confusing to you, feel free to point it out, or PM me. I will also offer up my telephone # {by PM} to anyone you would like to talk, or discuss the Gospel, or that would like to hear the Gospel

[/ QUOTE ]

yew--I can respect your strong beliefs even though I don't agree with them. I am a Christian who has been a member of a Southern Baptist Church since the age of 8 (not the same church). Never in 32 years of membership have I ever been told that deeds will get me into heaven.

One question---why would you offer your phone number to "witness" or even talk the gospel if you feel like God has already "elected" his chosen to go to heaven. There would be no point in witnessing his word to the lost. (Gator--not saying you are lost just using that quote as an example http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif). I do feel you are correct in knowing that God knows who is going to heaven but like buckee stated "God is all knowing"---he knows the day that I am going to die. He knows my sins before I commit them. So of course he is going to know who is going to confess his/her sins, accept Jesus Christ as his personal saviour and enter the kingdom of heaven.

I couldn't imagine God just "choosing" me to go to heaven but not "choosing" my parents, my wife, my children http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif That would not be a god I would want to worship. Everytime I hold my 2 daughters and they give me big kisses and tell me how much they love me---it brings tears to my eyes---then I think how much God loves me that he would give his only Son to die for MY sins. I had a choice whether or not to accept Him---I chose HIM. My love for my children doesn't even compare to the love that God has for us. With that amount of love and compassion I just can't believe that God plays einne minnie miny mo catch a tiger by his toe to decide who goes to heaven.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just a dumb redneck, who has deluded himself into thinking that God, in his infinate love and mercy, has saved me from my sins, through faith in Jesus Christ, and not of myself, but by the gift of God (the blood of Jesus).


[/ QUOTE ]

buckee---you must be taking the same drug I am--b/c I'm deluded into the same thinking http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

todd

[bulldawg]

Wow, so now we've got a holy war going on in the forums...lol.
What puzzles me, is that according to yewbow, the religion that I believe in is just based on men's beliefs, but not based on scripture. But, the beliefs were taken right out of the bible. Last I remember, scripture is what's written in the bible. ????
Yewbow, your beliefs are way out in left field from most of the rest of ours. This is the reason I stopped going to church. I was tired of watching the people who thought they were better then anyone else. It was getting to be a dog and pony show, and I had better things to do with my time. I believe in God, but can't figure out why there are so many different beliefs. Everyone believes that belief in thier God will make it so they will go to heaven. According to your beliefs, Yewbow, there are going to be alot of doomed souls in the end, who won't know what hit them. And, I think that's bunk.
This post has made me laugh out loud, hurt my feelings a bit here and there, and ticked me off a bit too. And, i'm just basically a fence sitter when it comes to religion anymore. I refuse to go to church, and if that causes me to not get to heaven, so be it. I'll still believe, and have been baptised, so I'll just hope for the best.
I feel sorry for the other folks in here though, who just went through a thorough stomping of beliefs that were taught from scripture http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif. Just shake it off, and let it go... http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[wtnhunt]

Think this thread is to the point it is going nowhere and surprised it has not been locked. Not sure what religion you are yewbowman, but simply do not agree with your interpretations of what you are saying here.

A book that has been translated as has the bible has had mans influence whether any of us like it or not. Unless you are capable of reading the original writings of those who were inspired by God to write the books in their original langauage you really do not know for absolutely certain what has and has not been conformed to fit mans needs over the years. Some things are for certain in my opinion any way anyone wants to interpret the bible, Jesus is Gods son and is our saviour. He died for all men that are willing to accept him.

[TreeStandBowHunter]

"I said" I was confused!
"I said again" I was still confused
"I am still saying" I am confused

yewbowman "You said" ......"You said" about 1000 times.

Buckee "You said" you wanted to give a class on using the "Quote buttton" so we don't have to waste server space on "You said's" http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
"I said" I agree because it's getting annoying"
"Someone else said" they can't believe this thread isin't locked"
"I said" nothing has really reached the "Thin red line" yet
Buckee "You said".....What am I going to do with TSBH http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[dogdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
Doc, all you can do is pray the Lord that your family is saved. If they are, they will live for eternity, but it will be by His Choice, not yours, or theirs........

[/ QUOTE ]

Just curious----if the decision has already been made then what good does it do to pray http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[horst]

TSBH, I didnt say anything this time around http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[buckee]

OK..I've been patient long enough. You have twisted everything I have said to suit your agenda. You are condescending, bare false witness against me and others, saying we have said something that we haven't said.
I think it's time to say goodbye.

In closing I would like to say this:

If dogdoc's daughter came to him and asked him if she could stay up later and he said "No dear, I know what's best for you" and she began to cry and complain to the point of throwing a tantrum. That would be an example of free-will exorcised by his daughter, even though she she told to go to bed.
And of course, she would no doubt suffer the consequences of her actions.

Goodbye and my God have mercy on your soul. It's sounds like you my be all alone, with no brothers and sisters in Christ to correct you, when correction is needed. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Therefore we are not to occupy ourselves with trying to give Biblical admonishments to those who are not among the Elect, for it will fall on deaf ears.
Jesus did NOT die for everyone. He only died for His Elect

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess that kind of says it all. This public, but privately owned hunting forum is the wrong place for you, since you believe God's word is only for believers. You need to find yourself a congregation to admonish. I guess you are above admonishment though, so I won't go there any more.

[TreeStandBowHunter]

Well we have came a long way I see....you must of received that class on using the "Quote" button instead of "You said's" http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif You'll probably find yourself saving time as well http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

You knew what this site had before joining http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif We have no problem with you being here. We would love to have you but the problem is, your making things up as you go with the bible and people who are alot smarter when it comes to the bible then I am are seeing that and calling you on it. Now it's too a point where I can't believe anything you say about the bible because you have no credibility as it seems!