Aethiest's great contribution to Wwstern Society.

[johnf]

Aethiest are the first group to get on the "Kick the Christian while he's down" bandwagon. They put us down for any cidkup or misjudgment. Almost everytime when there is some religious zelot who goes anywhere on a t.v. drama and does anything wrong it's almost always a Christian man.

I was just wandering when was the last time an aethiest organization started a major university, when they opened a soup kitchen, which aethiest started AA or did something good to help the world when it wasnt' a show of thier wealth or power or tax write of?.

And just out of curriosity, how can someone who doesn't believe in God be offended by Him?. That's like me being offended by hearing about a unicorn.

[Steven]

Lumping all us atheists together on the 'kick the Christian' bandwagon really makes you seem like a supremely ignorant, uninformed person.

I'm not offended by God or the Bible- It's a beautiful work of fiction, IMO.

There is no such thing as an atheist organization. Atheism, by definition, is unorganizable. 'My religion is the rejection of religion'? That makes no sense. And I'm sure plenty of Atheists have founded universities and a multitude of worthwhile endeavors, however, Atheism isn't mentioned because there is nothing to be gained from Atheism. Atheists don't get tax exempt status, so how is it a tax write off?

Please give some examples of these shows of wealth disguised as good deeds and I'll counter that with the same from Christian groups. Show examples of these atheists taking any chance to kick Christians when they're down and I can counter with countless cases of Christians doing the same about atheists, satanists or anyone that doesn't agree 100% with them. Rather than throwing out empty accusations on a board that has a high concentration who will agree with you, back up your accusations with something even slightly resembling facts, please. Thanks

Again, I'll be back Saturday morning to check these, but for now, I'm going on the road again I may just be able to check in before then, though. Bye.

[wtnhunt]

Dont know John. Kind of see Racksies point here and have to agree with him somewhat in that you cannot lump all atheists together. People are different.

[johnf]

[ QUOTE ]
Lumping all us atheists together on the 'kick the Christian' bandwagon really makes you seem like a supremely ignorant, uninformed person.


Well, that was rude.




I'm not offended by God or the Bible- It's a beautiful work of fiction, IMO.


I'm talking about those folks who seem to want some sort of litigation every time God or Jesus is mentioned in public.



There is no such thing as an atheist organization.



Scientology is an atheist. That's an organization.



Atheism, by definition, is unorganizable. 'My religion is the rejection of religion'? That makes no sense. And I'm sure plenty of Atheists have founded universities and a multitude of worthwhile endeavors

Name one.

, however, Atheism isn't mentioned because there is nothing to be gained from Atheism. Atheists don't get tax exempt status, so how is it a tax write off?

Anytime you give to a non-profit organization it can be a tax write off.



Please give some examples of these shows of wealth disguised as good deeds

Ted Turner- He's the only atheist I can think of that has done anything significant.



and I'll counter that with the same from Christian groups. Show examples of these atheists taking any chance to kick Christians when they're down

Everyone of them when any Christan is weak ei. Jim Baker, Jimmy Swaggart. Yes these men did dispicable things, they were punished (not unjustly) for it. But, you still see the media throwing it in their faces 20 years later.


and I can counter with countless cases of Christians doing the same about atheists, satanists or anyone that doesn't agree 100% with them. Rather than throwing out empty accusations on a board that has a high concentration who will agree with you, back up your accusations with something even slightly resembling facts, please. Thanks

Again, I'll be back Saturday morning to check these, but for now, I'm going on the road again I may just be able to check in before then, though. Bye.

[/ QUOTE ]

[dg]

Both of y'all should try google.com and do a few quick searches. But I'm with Racksie on this.

[horst]

That has to be one of the most ignorant statements Ive seen in a long time.

[ QUOTE ]
Almost everytime when there is some religious zelot who goes anywhere on a t.v. drama and does anything wrong it's almost always a Christian man

[/ QUOTE ]

So if a religous zealot goes on national televsion drawing attention to himself, then it turns out hes misappropriating funds to pay for prostitutes and gets caught for instance, how is that anyones fault but thier own?Athiets dont make them look bad, they generally do that all on thier own given enough time.


[ QUOTE ]
which aethiest started AA or did something good to help the world when it wasnt' a show of thier wealth or power or tax write of?.



[/ QUOTE ]

Athiesm isnt a tax write off, but your local churches are.

[ QUOTE ]
how can someone who doesn't believe in God be offended by Him?. That's like me being offended by hearing about a unicorn.

[/ QUOTE ]

That would depend on if the people that believed in unicorns were forcing thier beliefs down your throat every time a discussion about unicorns started wouldnt it?

Ill agree, some of them take things to far, but making a blanket statement like that about all of them is hardly justified.Its like saying all christians are child molesters becuase of the catholic priests who were caught doing it.

Christianity can go to far just like athiesm can.How many wars and dead bodies has Christianity been responsible for throughout the years?How many cultures have been destroyed when Christians showed up to "teach them a better way" of life?Kinda like us coming over here to avoid religous persecution and then taking all the indians land, killing them, and calling them savages because of thier beliefs.Its a 2 way street but if you look back through history religions been responsible for far more large scale atrocities then athiests could ever imagine.

[fisherguy]

Gee another post about how the non-christioan in society aren't as good or important as all you devout christians. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[slugshooter]

First off, even though I have a lot of doubts about a lot of things taught to me when I was young and in church, and I know some of you guys might think I am an atheist or what, sometimes I consider myself a "borderline agnostic" if that makes any sense. The act of atheism, correct me if I am wrong, is basically a belief in nothing, so to speak. So the Scientologist is not technically an atheist because they believe in something, whether it be themselves or some unseen energy field (the force? http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif)

As far as atheists kicking the Christian while he is down, heck, fellow Christians do a fine enough job of kicking their own while they are down than any group could ever do, and the fact that Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Bakker lost their faith and succumbed to temptation has nothing to do with atheists. I can't even remember the last time I heard anything on the news about them and in fact, just to throw this out here, my mother goes to an Episcopalian church and she was telling me that in the service a few weeks ago, the minister had most of his sermon devoted to preaching about the evils of Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart.

The non-believer may scoff at the likes of Bakker, Swaggart or any other evangelist gone wrong, but they do not keep it on the burner like some people of faith do.

As far as tax exempt status and organization, I haven't ever heard of any "Great Atheist Convention" or anything like that and the groups most responsible for the majority of conventions are evangelicals who get together and talk about how righteous they are and who decry anyone and any group that isn't just like them. Ted Turner is an atheist, or was, not sure if he still is, but like previously posted, donations are tax exempt for any group, churches on the other hand are tax exempt for anything, but what I find interesting is that doesn't seem to be enough for some churches. Two churches I was a member of when I was growing up, even with all the tax breaks and other things given to them, still felt that they should be given anything they ask for, whether it be for an easement, zoning, placement of a sign or whatever, it's a little sickening actually, because as soon as something gets denied, it's not because the county or state is following already existing regulations and to make a concession for the church they would have to make it for everybody, it's not that simple for the church, they feel it is because everyone in the county or state government are godless atheists and they are discriminating against the church and we should have a special prayer service to pray for the salvation of those who made the decision so we can get what we want. I don't think churches should be tax exempt honestly, but whoever comes up with that law is in for a burning at the stake.

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

OK, let me make an observation on John's original post (John, don't let me put words in your mouth, if I'm wrong say so).

I think what John is trying to point out is that for centuries, religion and religious organizations were the basis for the vast majority of philanthropic actions in society. Now we see religions and the religious being "bashed" from all sides and all types of efforts are being made to forcibly remove all religious references from society outside of the walls of a church, synagogue, mosque etc. So the question is, if these efforts succeed, what happens to our society? Will the charities, schools, hospitals, half way houses, shelters, soup kitchens, orphanages, etc. survive without the support of the religious organizations? I just don't see a track record of major societal contributions in the philanthropies from the non-religious. Certainly nothing that will compare to the contributions made in the name of the various religions.

[slugshooter]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, let me make an observation on John's original post (John, don't let me put words in your mouth, if I'm wrong say so).

I think what John is trying to point out is that for centuries, religion and religious organizations were the basis for the vast majority of philanthropic actions in society. Now we see religions and the religious being "bashed" from all sides and all types of efforts are being made to forcibly remove all religious references from society outside of the walls of a church, synagogue, mosque etc. So the question is, if these efforts succeed, what happens to our society? Will the charities, schools, hospitals, half way houses, shelters, soup kitchens, orphanages, etc. survive without the support of the religious organizations? I just don't see a track record of major societal contributions in the philanthropies from the non-religious. Certainly nothing that will compare to the contributions made in the name of the various religions.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see what you're saying TTID, but these orgs that you speak of (soup kitchens, etc.) are run by churches and things of that nature, but if the church runs it and uses their own money for it, there isn't much that can be done about it, the thing about the Separation of Church and State is that it has to be proven that the church or religious group is using the federal money to advance their religious beliefs. If the church is getting federal money to run a soup kitchen, then thats all that the money should be used for. There are plenty of other shelters and charitable orgs that aren't run by a church of any kind, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are atheist or want churches out of the loop

[buckee]

Open mouth...insert foot http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I don't think John was trying to say, what he actually said either. I think it came out all wrong.
Talk about a can-O-worms eh http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[johnf]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, let me make an observation on John's original post (John, don't let me put words in your mouth, if I'm wrong say so).

I think what John is trying to point out is that for centuries, religion and religious organizations were the basis for the vast majority of philanthropic actions in society. Now we see religions and the religious being "bashed" from all sides and all types of efforts are being made to forcibly remove all religious references from society outside of the walls of a church, synagogue, mosque etc. So the question is, if these efforts succeed, what happens to our society? Will the charities, schools, hospitals, half way houses, shelters, soup kitchens, orphanages, etc. survive without the support of the religious organizations? I just don't see a track record of major societal contributions in the philanthropies from the non-religious. Certainly nothing that will compare to the contributions made in the name of the various religions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Texan, You said it much better. My point was that while yes christains do make some monumental mistakes. They still do more good IMO than any other organization or group.

[johnf]

[ QUOTE ]
Open mouth...insert foot http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I don't think John was trying to say, what he actually said either. I think it came out all wrong.
Talk about a can-O-worms eh http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/bandmasterjf/footinmouthtrophy.jpg

Sometimes my pinki hits enter too soon. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

[johnf]

So then, I'll ask again. What has any athiest or athiest organization (if there is one) done for society?

[fisherguy]

I'm an aethiest, i volunteer at a food bank, i volunteer with big brothers, i just organized a blood donation drive in my college class, i donate time and money to various conservation groups... there ya go, an aethiest who did something for society. Get off your religious high horse.

[dg]

[ QUOTE ]
So then, I'll ask again. What has any athiest or athiest organization (if there is one) done for society?

[/ QUOTE ]

i guess you didn't read my first post.

[horst]

[ QUOTE ]
So then, I'll ask again. What has any athiest or athiest organization (if there is one) done for society?

[/ QUOTE ]


Im not real sure what your problem is with athiests all the sudden but I cant even see a reason for this post to stay here personally.I believe in God and still find it offensive.If I came in and made a post blasting Christianity like you did athiests it would be gone by now.

[buckee]

I find it kind of offensive too John, because Christians don't have the monopoly on doing good works.
Many athiests still have a sense of morality and do good things for people.
Christians have started many (not all) great organizations, but are not supported solely by Christians either.

Remember John ...we are saved by Grace (through Jesus Christ), unto better works. The works Christians do are nothing to brag about, and it doesn't mean that we were incapable of doing good works before we were saved.

It would however be interesting to see the state of society and the world, if God were to remove his Holy Spirit from the world completely.

[spyderpancake]

I am a Christian but have to disagree with you John. Like buckee said, we are not the only ones who contribute to society. Athiests have done plenty for society. Just because they don't believe like us doesn't make them lesser citizens. I'm not sure what you are trying to get at, but your not doing a very good job of it...

[SaskMan]

[ QUOTE ]
For the atheists out there, what do you believe? I'm not trying to force my beliefs on anyone, but i'm interested in knowing your views. Evolution?

[/ QUOTE ]


I'm an atheist and yes I believe in evolution. I won't try to get anybody to see my point of view, just like I won't see theirs but that it was I believe. I don't believe in the Adam and Eve thing and like Racksie, I agree that the bible is one incredible piece of fiction. I haven't read it all but I've read some of it and that is what i feel it is. I do believe that earth and the solar system came from somewhere, I just don't know where. I believe that when i die I am gone, my life is over and that is that. I woin't worry about the end b/c when the end comes I will not know, in the meantime I'll just be thankful for my time here.

On another note, I cannot believe John has came here stating how little atheists have done for society. Fisherguy's post hit the nail on the head. Some of the worst people I know are Christian's, they drink too much, gamble too often, are a less than ideal husband and dad, how can being Christian make you a better person than an atheist who lives his life in honorable way??? http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif I'm not saying all Christians are this way and I'm not saying all atheists live an honorable life but I'd say this is an extreme case of someone believeing they have supremacy over others simply b/c they are Christian and that is a joke! http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[slugshooter]

[ QUOTE ]
...did something good to help the world when it wasn't a show of their wealth or power or tax write off?.


[/ QUOTE ]

Went back and reread Johnf's original post here and this kinda caught my attention. Not pickin on ya here john, just a thought. There are plenty of "Christians" with plenty of money who do many charitable things for "God", but a lot of the time I think they do it to show how much money "the Lord" has given them. Benny Hinn on the other hand, he's got plenty of money and keeps it, he's a crook and a half and should be in jail.

[dg]

[ QUOTE ]
For the atheists out there, what do you believe?

[/ QUOTE ]

I had a guy the other day email me from the church I used to go and he was "concerned" because I hadn't been there in awhile. He said he'd pray for me and made it sound like I was the one that was troubled. I guess he has his divorce taken care of now and wants to help others. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
And this is what i said:

Hello "John",

I hope all is well for you and Carol too. What I have to say is in a friendly manner, so please don't take this the wrong way. I never grew up in a church-going environment. Only a few years ago did I start going to church and try to be what I thought the proper family man should do. (an influence by society) I kept doubting my feelings and tried to convert to be the good Christian. After a couple years of that in church, the preacher always telling people how they should be, and some frustration, I couldn't be what I wasn't. After trying to learn the bible, it was evident that there was many things that did not pass my logic test. I came to terms with myself and now I trust in who I am. And I am now at peace with myself.

The environment we grow up in plays a strong force in who we develop to be. There is exceptions in all cases of course. But I do believe there is a God. With my limited knowledge, I don't understand it all. "I just know". But I feel the bible was written by man, for man, that also had limited knowledge. I use the analogy that if an aircraft flew over their heads 2,000 years ago, I couldn't imagine what would have been written. But we, as of today, fully understand the concept and write it off as normal. And I will not blindly follow a book just because "that's what it says." God gaves us a brain to think, not follow like lemmings. Why doesn't he stop by and say Hey?

The bible states many things that man can do to be a good person. Going to church is also a good thing to do. But the fellowship, networking, and teamwork is a by-product of people coming together, not a ticket to heaven. I also believe that this great earth IS heaven. But humans can't see the forest for the trees. Most are wrapped up in concrete and know nothing about the woods. Look at nature and you will find the answers. We are alive and we die. It's that simple. That is why 99% of humans subconsciencly and automatically marry and reproduce. We strive to have babies to carry on just like in nature. We (and the whole ecosystem) were put here to live on Earth. But the problem with humans is, we "humanize" things so much that we loose sight on what is real. And we deny the fact that we pass on and go into the soil. Again, look at nature.

I truely believe most people are so-called Christians to be socially-accepted (humanizing). I find it really odd that this Earth has billions of people. But one religion says that if they don't follow the same belief's, all other religions are wrong. Again, this is where our environment growing up plays a big part in our development and belief's. Also, there is so many different religions and belief's, I don't think God is sitting on a throne trying to persuade billions to convert to just one thought.

I'll quit babbling for now, but what also struck me as odd during church and Sunday school was the number of people that requested a prayer when the chips were down. Why? If they truely trusted the lord, why question him and his decision?

And my last comment is: "we love to smile and say hi when it's convenient (forced eye-to-eye). But when backs are turned, many walk by quietly even though our voices and hearing are good." It's just the honest truth we don't want to say.................I don't feel I'm the one who needs someone to talk to. But thanks.

Take care,

Dan //end//

Now I don't know what religion you call that and I don't really care. I feel something is higher than we are, but what or who, I don't know. Alot of people are either for religion or for evolution. I kind of think there is a middle ground. If you observe nature, you'll see changes animals have made to adapt. It doesn't matter. I won't expect anyone to move to my side and I sure won't try and persuade either. You state your side, I will mine and then be done without prejudice.

[spyderpancake]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe that when i die I am gone, my life is over and that is that. I woin't worry about the end b/c when the end comes I will not know, in the meantime I'll just be thankful for my time here.


[/ QUOTE ]
As a born-again Christian, I believe that when I die, I will go to Heaven because my sins have been covered by the blood of Christ. Sadly, I don't believe that will be true of people who have not accepted Christ. I think I have much less to lose than you Saskman or any Evolutionist. Suppose you are right, and when i die, i will be over. Big deal. My beliefs on Earth did not make a bit of difference in the long run. I had just as good a life as anyone else and now it is over. Now lets suppose that I am right, and when you die, you will stand before God. The Bible says that all whose names are not written in the Book of Life(those who are true Christians) will be cast into the Lake of Fire. Don't get mad with me, I just want to get you thinking. If you are right, we will be dirt together. If I am right, we will be spending eternity in two very different places. Why not be on the safe side???

[fisherguy]

Good idea, let's believe in god just in case there is one... My beliefs are right in line with saskmans, and they are my beliefs, jsut as some of you have christian beliefs. That is fine, and this post is getting off topic anyway. It is supposed to be about how all of us aethiests make no contribution to society. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[spyderpancake]

fisherguy, i respect the beliefs you choose to have. I defended you in my first post in this topic. I was just trying to get you to look at it in a different life, because I care about you. You probably don't want my concern and that is fine. And I don't believe in God just in case, I firmly believe in Him and have a personal relationship with Him.

[TreeStandBowHunter]

I tried to stay out of this but the more I read that initial post, the more aggrivated I get by it. Well I can assure you that Aethiests contribute to society. I don't know about groups or organizations. Actually, it is because of some aethiests and non-believers that you are free today. That's right, the Military. The Military is full of non-believers and aethiests. Me personnaly, I believe in God and believe that Jesus died for our sins...that's about as much as I preach though. I am far from what some of you guys are. But I do not look down on aethiests though. I guarntee that alot of those folks dying for your freedom so you can type your thread up, are aethiests. I will hangout with a aethiest just as quick as a Christian man. What they believe is up to them. Now the ones that go around and bash churches and christians, that's one thing but usually you will not even notice the normal everyday aethiest. Who are you or anybody to say that they don't contribute to our society.

[fisherguy]

Spyderpancake, i was referring to me believing in god just in case. I was raised in church and came to my own conclusions on the issue. And i do appreciate your concern, but i have made my decisions based on examining both sides, if i have a desire to change my views i will seek out information or assistance at that point on my own.

[SaskMan]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I have much less to lose than you Saskman

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm willing to take that chance. For all I've won in living I'm not too worried about what you say I have to lose, I guess I'll worry about it when that day comes or maybe I won't b/c like I said before, when that day comes I won't have to worry any longer. My belief is totally different than yours is spyderpancake yet I haven't been here preaching to anybody how much they have to lose yet you singled me out,.....thanks! http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
By the way, my grandpa was an atheist, he also spent 5 years serving his country and the world in the war against Hitler, I guess that doesn't count as a contribution to society, and if I'm going to the place of fire then fine, I'll see my grandpa again.

[HuntingInMaine]

[ QUOTE ]
Now lets suppose that I am right, and when you die, you will stand before God. The Bible says that all whose names are not written in the Book of Life(those who are true Christians) will be cast into the Lake of Fire. Don't get mad with me, I just want to get you thinking. If you are right, we will be dirt together. If I am right, we will be spending eternity in two very different places. Why not be on the safe side???

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you know you have picked the "right" religion that will get you that spot in heaven? Maybe you are Baptist, but the Catholics are the ones that got it right. Wouldn't that mean that you aren't going to get into heaven because you haven't been forgiven for any of your sins. Or maybe the Jehovah Witnesses are right and they are the only ones that will make it to heaven? Or maybe the Jewish religion is the chosen one? And then there is the belief that there is no **** and religion is just something cooked up to scare people into giving the church power and money.

I guess this is my biggest problem with organized religion. Each one of them believes that they have the only key to heaven and everyone else are lost souls. So, who is right and how do they KNOW???

[slugshooter]

[ QUOTE ]
And then there is the belief that there is no **** and religion is just something cooked up to scare people into giving the church power and money.


[/ QUOTE ]

Religion- What keeps the poor from killing the rich.


Saw that on a bumper sticker a month or so ago. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[horst]

[ QUOTE ]
Every religion in the world can be divuided into those two groups

[/ QUOTE ]

Hate to burst your bubble but thats not quite a true statement.

Lots of religions dont worship God or Jesus at all.You got people worshipping Allah, you got people worshipping whatever the name of that elephant god is they have in india, you got tribes in some places that pray to a series of gods for different reason, you got cults right here in the goodold USA that will worship whatever their brainwashing leader tells them to.

In this forum alone Ive heard so many different beliefs in the last couple weeks that its hard to sort em all out

You must believe in God and attend church to be forgiven

You must believe in God and that jesus died for your sins

You must only believe and live a good life to be forgiven

there was some nutball theory about God already having a chosen few and everyone else was going to ****

yo got Catholics with confession and not eating meat

you got people drinking wine for communion

baptisms

lutherans have to goto catechism{sp?}

theres a ton of differences besides those you mentioned and a ton of other religous icons to choose from around the world.Whos to say that by not doing just one of these things you not damning yourself?or are they just rituals people perform that will have no bearing on anything.Im not trying to be a jerk or anything, but Id really like to understand how all churches can operate just a little differently and have the same results.And what about the ones who believe, live good lifes, but dont attend church at all.Im completely serious now, since these discussions started popping up in here Im more confused then ever http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Steven]

[ QUOTE ]
Lumping all us atheists together on the 'kick the Christian' bandwagon really makes you seem like a supremely ignorant, uninformed person.


Well, that was rude.


[/ QUOTE ]

You're right. Your generalization of all atheists as people just waiting for Christians to screw up so they can pounce on them as if none of us have our own minds makes you look extremly intelligent. I guess I should assume everytime an abortion clinic gets bombed it was all Christians that conspired to have it done; everytime a gay couple gets beaten to a bloody pulp, it was all Christians; everytime a child dies because it's parents don't believe in hospitals, that God will heal them, all Christians are responsible?



[ QUOTE ]
I'm not offended by God or the Bible- It's a beautiful work of fiction, IMO.


I'm talking about those folks who seem to want some sort of litigation every time God or Jesus is mentioned in public.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no disagreement here. There's too much litigation from ALL groups anymore.



[ QUOTE ]
There is no such thing as an atheist organization.



Scientology is an atheist. That's an organization.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Scientology is a mixture of all the Eastern religion ie. Hindu, budisim ect. Most Scientologist are very nice, very succesful people with good (compaired with the rest of the world) morals.

[/ QUOTE ]

You weren't quite so critical of them in the 'scientology queston' thread. Oh well, I don't claim to know enough about them to say what they are. I don't care to either.


[ QUOTE ]

Atheism, by definition, is unorganizable. 'My religion is the rejection of religion'? That makes no sense. And I'm sure plenty of Atheists have founded universities and a multitude of worthwhile endeavors.

Name one.


[/ QUOTE ]

You're the one making baseless assumptions and everyone knows the burden of proof is on the plaintiff. But, I'll do your job for you.
The American Cancer Society or the Red Cross are non-religious charities. They've never done anything for anybody. Have they?

Most atheists seem to feel that atheism isn't worth shouting about in connection with charity. To them, atheism is just a simple, obvious everyday matter, and so is charity. Many feel that it's somewhat cheap, not to say self-righteous, to use simple charity as an excuse to plug a particular set of religious beliefs.

To atheists, building a hospital to say "I do not believe in God" is a rather strange idea; it's rather like holding a party to say "Today is not my birthday". Why the fuss? Atheism is rarely evangelistic.

[ QUOTE ]
, however, Atheism isn't mentioned because there is nothing to be gained from Atheism. Atheists don't get tax exempt status, so how is it a tax write off?

Anytime you give to a non-profit organization it can be a tax write off.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no idea where you're trying to go with this statement. Only atheists write items off their taxes? You don't write off the interest on your mortgage?

[ QUOTE ]
Please give some examples of these shows of wealth disguised as good deeds

Ted Turner- He's the only atheist I can think of that has done anything significant.

[/ QUOTE ]

If Ted Turner has done good deeds, even as a show of wealth, good for him. The reasoning behind a good deed doesn't diminsh the good deed, IMO.

[ QUOTE ]

and I'll counter that with the same from Christian groups. Show examples of these atheists taking any chance to kick Christians when they're down

Everyone of them when any Christan is weak ei. Jim Baker, Jimmy Swaggart. Yes these men did dispicable things, they were punished (not unjustly) for it. But, you still see the media throwing it in their faces 20 years later.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have proof that everyone on the media that said anything about Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggert are atheist? And that only atheists said anything about them? Why have you kept it to yourself for so long?
Let's see what some famous atheists said about Jim Bakker, shall we?

-Jerry Falwell called Bakker a liar, embezzler, sexual deviate, and "the greatest scab and cancer on the face of Christianity in two thousand years of church history." here (http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Jim-Bakker)

- Jimmy Swaggart publicly denounced Bakker as "a cancer on the body of Christ." (here (http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Jimmy-Swaggart))

I bet he wishes he could've taken that back.

[ QUOTE ]
and I can counter with countless cases of Christians doing the same about atheists, satanists or anyone that doesn't agree 100% with them. Rather than throwing out empty accusations on a board that has a high concentration who will agree with you, back up your accusations with something even slightly resembling facts, please. Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't feel like doing this part, eh? I don't blame you, it'd be impossible becuase that seems to be what Christians do best. A hobby, of sorts.

[Steven]

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting discussion..
This may be a little off the original topic, but just for curiosity's sake,
For the atheists out there, what do you believe? I'm not trying to force my beliefs on anyone, but i'm interested in knowing your views. Evolution? I personally don't have enough faith to believe those incredibly small odds. Did everything come from a primordial ooze? Where did the ooze come from? If you go back far enough in your reasoning, you have to admit there HAD to be an Original Creator. For every effect, there must be a cause.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't claim to know the origins of the universe, but I don't see any greater odds for an all-powerful creator than I do for evolution. And if for every effect there must be a cause, then someone or something must've created god. Correct? Or is god the one thing that the rule doesn't apply? If the rule doesn't apply to god, who's to say that the rule doesn't apply for anything else?


[ QUOTE ]
Racksie, you mentioned that you believe the Bible is a beautiful work of fiction. Just wondering, have you ever read It? I invite you to read the short book of John in the New Testament with an open mind. It explains many fundamental Christian beliefs. If there's no God, you won't lose anything in the process, and if there is, wouldn't it be wise to know what He has to say?
Just my $.02

[/ QUOTE ]

I've read the bible several times. I was raised southern baptist and every Sunday from age 2 to 16 I was constantly reminded that I was going to h e l l no matter what I do. Every preacher I ever witnessed explain these books of the bible had completely different translations of the text. That's when I realized that anybody can get anything they want out of it. You may find a story of god's love for the world- but, I get a fictitious tale of an all-powerful being who rises from the dead and ascends to a place that has no physical location and sits at the side of another all-powerful being who no one has ever seen and if the mortals don't comply with the every whim of the beings they will be sent to another place with no physical location for an eternity of torment.

[buckee]

The one basic choice for modern man is between the man-god of atheism and the God-man(Jesus) of Christian revelation.
I believe (as the bible states) that there is a disaster coming upon man as a result of man-god ideals which will be the legacy of not only our Western liberalism, but also the worlds liberalism and its efforts of eliminating God and secularizing society. The truth is that those who “kill” God will also kill man eventually. Man without God cannot remain free.
To be Free from God, you become a slave to sin. To be free from sin, you become a slave to God.
To remove God entirely from modern society, you would be removing the only one who is keeping it from ruin and chaos.

Here's something to think about. (Something I pulled off a web-site, that is hard to disagree with)

Can Atheists be ethical?

The answer to this question is a definite, "Yes." Atheists are people who, whether they like it or not, have the law of God written on their hearts (Rom. 2:15). They are subject to the same laws of our country (and other countries). They have a sense of right and wrong. They must work with people and being unethical in society would not serve them very well. It is practical and logical for an atheist to be ethical and work within the norms of social behavior. Atheists, generally, are honest, hardworking people.
Nevertheless, some Christians raise the question, "What is to prevent an atheist from murdering and stealing? After all, they have no fear of God and no absolute moral code." The answer is simple: Atheists are capable of governing their own moral behavior and getting along in society the same as anyone else.
At the risk of labeling the atheist as self-centered, it does not serve the best interests of an atheist to murder and steal. It would not take long before he was imprisoned and/or killed for his actions. Basically, society will only put up with so much if it is to function smoothly. So, if an atheist wants to get along and have a nice life, murdering and stealing won't accomplish it. It makes sense for him to be honest, work hard, pay his bills, and get along with others. Basically, he has to adopt a set of ethics common to society in order to do that. Belief in God is not a requirement for ethical behavior or an enjoyable life.

ON THE OTHER HAND

Atheists' morals are not absolute. They do not have a set of moral laws from an absolute God by which right and wrong are judged. But, they do have a legal system with a codified set of moral laws. This would be the closest thing to moral absolutes for atheists. However, since the legal system changes (slavery was legal 200 years ago but is not now), the morals in a society can still change. At best, these codified morals are "temporary absolutes." This can be a problem as the norms of society shift and the ethics shift with them. In one century abortion is wrong. In another, it is right. Well, is it or isn't it right? If there is a God, killing the unborn is wrong. If there is no God, then who cares? If it serves the best interest of society and the individual, then kill. This can be likened to something I call, "experimental ethics." In other words, whatever works best is right. Society experiments with ethical behavior to determine which set of rules works best for it. Unfortunately, however, social experimentation is often harmful.
There are potential dangers in this kind of ethical system. If a totalitarian political system is instituted and a mandate is issued to kill all dissenters, or Christians, or mentally ill, what is to prevent the atheist from joining forces with the majority system and support the killings? It serves his self-interests, so why not?
But, to be fair, just because someone has an absolute ethical system based upon the Bible is no guarantee that he will not also join forces for the killings. But the issue is the base and ramifications of that base. Beliefs affect behavior. That is why belief systems are so important and absolutes are so necessary. A boat adrift without an anchor soon crashes into the rocks.
The Bible teaches love, patience, and seeking the welfare of others even when it might harm the Christian; in this the ten commandments are a summary. In contrast, the atheists' presuppositions must be evolutionary. Since evolution teaches that life is the product of purely natural and utilitarian properties of our world, survival of the fittest, natural selection, and equating humans to animals as a species are the ontological basis for our existence and living. With this the value of man is lowered. In contrast, it is a very high calling to treat people properly who also are made in the image of God.
Basically, I do not see how the atheist could claim any moral absolutes at all. To an atheist, ethics must be variable and evolving. This could be good or bad. But, given human nature being what it is, I'll opt for the moral absolutes -- based on God's word.

And the saving Grace of Jesus Christ http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[johnf]

Darn nice post buckee.

[fisherguy]

Ok, jsut one more comment and i am done. YOu mentioned how laws, and therefore the morals of aithiest change. The bible(well certainly the morales it pushes) changes. Try doing something like oh say hunting on a sunday 100 years ago...and according to the word of the bible it is a no no. That is just one example, but christian morales change too as teh interpretation of the bible, and the needs of society, and christians change.

[johnf]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, jsut one more comment and i am done. YOu mentioned how laws, and therefore the morals of aithiest change. The bible(well certainly the morales it pushes) changes. Try doing something like oh say hunting on a sunday 100 years ago...and according to the word of the bible it is a no no. That is just one example, but christian morales change too as teh interpretation of the bible, and the needs of society, and christians change.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually that's a jewish law in which Christians are not under. Christains who do not work, hunt, fish or whatever on Sunday do it because they personally don't feel like it's right, not because it's a sin. The bible does say that some things are sins to one man but not to another. ie. drinking or eating of unclean meats if you feel convicted (guilty) by doing eather one then it is a sin to you. If a man has a problem with lust controling his life then going to the beach to watch the girls is a sin. If a woman is a compulsive shopper to the point that it controls her, then shopping is a sin.

Anything that comes between me, or buckee, or preacherman or any other Christain and God is a sin. If hunting or fishing can be done by someone in a way which glorifies the Lord on a Sunday then it isn't a sin. If they are obsessed by it and it is controling them, then it is.

[fisherguy]

Ok, my mistake...new example...slavery...christians were involved in that too...and their morales also changed.

[johnf]

Slavery is actually not condemed in the old or new testiment. Furthermore, Christ himself talks about a maidservant or manservent being a good servant to thier master. Slavery abounded throughout the bible and is never (to my knowledge) spoken against. I think, and could very well be wrong, that slavery didn't start getting taboo anywhere untill the 19th century.

[slugshooter]

[ QUOTE ]
Slavery is actually not condemed in the old or new testiment. Furthermore, Christ himself talks about a maidservant or manservent being a good servant to thier master. Slavery abounded throughout the bible and is never (to my knowledge) spoken against. I think, and could very well be wrong, that slavery didn't start getting taboo anywhere untill the 19th century.

[/ QUOTE ]

Slavery and hired help are two wildly different things. Enslaving a race of people, shipping them thousands of miles from their homeland, and then treating them like second class citizens, (or 3/5's of a person for you history buffs) is morally repugnant. As a white man, I am ashamed for what happened in this country to blacks and native americans.

[slugshooter]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually that's a jewish law in which Christians are not under.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are not the Ten Commandments Jewish law also, but every Christian holds them up high to try and get their point across, when Christ himself said that "the greatest commandment is this,'To love your neighbor as yourself.'" I find it funny how the Ten Commandments fall under the requirements of Christian living, when in the same chapter of the Old Testament, when Moses is coming up with the rest of the "Jewish" laws, those aren't as important as the first ten, I guess because there would be too many to engrave on slabs of marble.

[johnf]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Slavery is actually not condemed in the old or new testiment. Furthermore, Christ himself talks about a maidservant or manservent being a good servant to thier master. Slavery abounded throughout the bible and is never (to my knowledge) spoken against. I think, and could very well be wrong, that slavery didn't start getting taboo anywhere untill the 19th century.

[/ QUOTE ]

Slavery and hired help are two wildly different things. Enslaving a race of people, shipping them thousands of miles from their homeland, and then treating them like second class citizens, (or 3/5's of a person for you history buffs) is morally repugnant. As a white man, I am ashamed for what happened in this country to blacks and native americans.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey I'm 1/16th indian and 1/64th black, I think you owe me a little latitude for that. After all you've oppressed my people enogh haven't you. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[johnf]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Actually that's a jewish law in which Christians are not under.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are not the Ten Commandments Jewish law also, but every Christian holds them up high to try and get their point across, when Christ himself said that "the greatest commandment is this,'To love your neighbor as yourself.'" I find it funny how the Ten Commandments fall under the requirements of Christian living, when in the same chapter of the Old Testament, when Moses is coming up with the rest of the "Jewish" laws, those aren't as important as the first ten, I guess because there would be too many to engrave on slabs of marble.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was pointing out that we are under a new covanant with God. The Jews were under the first covanant of sacrifice through God promise to Abraham who was the father of all Jews. Christ said the we (Christains) are under a new covanant of Grace through His shed blood we are redeamed. Our two comandments given by Christ are to Love the Lord with all our hearts, the second comandment is to love our neigbor. These two comandments cover everything that we need to do and all of the trivial Mosaic laws do not apply.

Please don't misunderstand here I'm not talking about major laws, because the ones that really matter are covered by the two the Christ gave us. After all you can't commit murder, adultery or 9 of the 10 comandment of Moses and be loving your neighbor, and if you do many other things your breaking the first comandment of Christ. If I put hunting or fishing or even my son before God, then I am breaking that comandment and loving something more than my creator.

The fact is sluggo, there were slaves at the time and Christ said nothing against it. If you think he did, I challange you to show me where http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif.