Another Atheism Question

[markyj987]

There's quite an interesting discussion ongoing in the other atheism thread, but I have something else that kind of relates to that topic. Let me preface it by saying a few things first.

1. I don't hate athiests.
2. Yes, I do care about and pray for them.
3. No, I do not think they are bad people--and think many have made good contributions to society.

My question is about being offended. Why, if you believe there is no God...no life after this, are you so offended by Christianity?

Am I making a generalization here? Are there just some atheists that are militant in their belief and go out of their way to get offended by "one Nation under God" and "In God We Trust"?

Why would atheists even care one way or the other?

Don't get me wrong--I'm not chastising anyone for being offended by religion being shoved down their throat like a lot of street corner preachers and door-knockers do. That even offends many Christians. I'm talking about the more normal, day-to-day, status quo stuff here. Do any of the atheists here really find that offensive?

To organize and unite under the idea of removing the idea of God from the public square, does that not make atheism a religion in itself?

I don't want anyone to take what I'm asking the wrong way. However, in the interest of full disclosure (LOL), I have to admit that I do have a problem with those who choose to get offended by Christianity. I find it ridiculous. I would think, with how long life is being so finite to atheists that they may be more focused on other more important things?

I've tried to pose this in as non-judgemental way as possible...so everyone, please check your emotions at the door on this one. I'm just trying to "get it" and not bash anyone. (Trust me, if I was bashing anything, I would do it in a much more obvious way. For reference, feel free to see any of my posts about public education in Milwaukee... http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif)

Edit: Forgot to mention this...that I did see Racksie's post in the other thread...and know he's not offended by Christianity. Go Racskie! lol

[HuntingInMaine]

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To organize and unite under the idea of removing the idea of God from the public square, does that not make atheism a religion in itself?


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I'm not an atheist, nor am I what others here would consider a Christian, but I don't see where your above example would create a religion. It would be just an organization, wouldn't it?

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I would think, with how long life is being so finite to atheists that they may be more focused on other more important things?

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Maybe these people who take on the cause of removing religion from daily life think it is an important thing they are doing. They just look at things differently then you do. We all have our own "causes". For example, I feel very strongly about equal rights for women in all situations and there are very few here that feel the same way. I think what I do to further my cause is very important, but many others would think it is just a big waste of time and energy.

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I'm just trying to "get it" and not bash anyone

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I think you did a good job of not bashing anyone, but if you want to "get it", you have to look at it from an atheist's perspective!

Just my opinion...do with it what you want! http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[horst]

Actually I dont think the athiests are as responsible for nearly as much of this stuff as you guys think.Its people of other cultures and faiths that are raising the most fuss about this stuff.Then you get groups like the ACLU who are more then happy to pick this up and run with it once its set in motion.Im not saying athiests arent resposible for any of it but I think they get blamed for a lot more then they really do.For the most part thier really not as outspoken about it as other religions are, they take much greater offense to it then most athiests ever will.

[buckee]

The Atheist Professor

"LET ME EXPLAIN the problem science has with Jesus Christ." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand. "You're a Christian, aren't you, son?" "Yes, sir." "So you believe in God?" "Absolutely." "Is God good?" "Sure! God's good." "Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?" "Yes." "Are you good or evil?" "The Bible says I'm evil."
The professor grins knowingly. "Ahh! THE BIBLE!" He considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help them? Would you try?" "Yes sir, I would." "So you're good...!" "I wouldn't say that." "Why not say that? You would help a sick and maimed person if you could... in fact most of us would if we could...God doesn't." No answer.

"He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?" No answer

The elderly man is sympathetic. "No, you can't, can you?" He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. In philosophy, you have to go easy with the new ones. "Let's start again young fella. Is God good?" "Er... Yes." "Is Satan good?" "No." "Where does Satan come from?" The student falters. "From... God..."

"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he?" The elderly man runs his bony fingers through his thinning hair and turns to the smirking, student audience. "I think we're going to have a lot of fun this semester, ladies and gentlemen." He turns back to the Christian. "Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?" "Yes, sir." "Evil's everywhere, isn't it? Did God make everything?" "Yes." "Who created evil?" No answer

"Is there sickness in this world? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All the terrible things - do they exist in this world?" The student squirms on his feet. "Yes." "Who created them? " No answer The professor suddenly shouts at his student. "WHO CREATED THEM? TELL ME, PLEASE!" The professor closes in for the kill and climbs into the Christian's face. In a still small voice: "God created all evil, didn't He, son?" No answer

The student tries to hold the steady, experienced gaze and fails. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace the front of the classroom like an aging panther. The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues, "How is it that this God is good if He created all evil throughout all time?" The professor swishes his arms around to encompass the wickedness of the world. "All the hatred, the brutality, all the pain, all the torture, all the death and ugliness and all the suffering created by this good God is all over the world, isn't it, young man?" No answer.

"Don't you see it all over the place? Huh? "Don't you?" The professor leans into the student's face again and whispers, "Is God good?" No answer. "Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?" The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor. I do." The old man shakes his head sadly. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen God?" "No, sir. I've never seen Him." "Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?" "No, sir. I have not." "Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus... in fact, do you have any sensory perception of your God whatsoever?" No answer

"Answer me, please." "No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't." "You're AFRAID... you haven't ?" "No, sir." "Yet you still believe in him?" "...yes..." "That takes FAITH!" the professor smiles sagely at the underling. "According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son? Where is your God now?" The student doesn't answer. "Sit down, please." The Christian sits...Defeated.

Another Christian raises his hand. "Professor, may I address the class?" The professor turns and smiles. "Ah, another Christian in the vanguard! Come, come, young man. Speak some proper wisdom to the gathering." The Christian looks around the room. "Some interesting points you are making, sir. Now I've got a question for you. Is there such a thing as heat?" "Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat." "Is there such a thing as cold?" "Yes, son, there's cold too." "No, sir, there isn't." The professor's grin freezes. The room suddenly goes very cold.

The second Christian continues. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than 458. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it." Silence. A pin drops somewhere in the classroom.

"Is there such a thing as darkness, professor?" "That's a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn't darkness? What are you getting at...?" "So you say there is such a thing as darkness?" "Yes..." "You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something, it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker and give me a jar of it. Can you...give me a jar of darker darkness, professor?"

Despite himself, the professor smiles at the young effrontery before him. This will indeed be a good semester. "Would you mind telling us what your point is, young man?" "Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with and so your conclusion must be in error...." The professor goes toxic. "Flawed...? How dare you...!" "Sir, may I explain what I mean?" The class is all ears. "Explain... oh, explain..." The professor makes an admirable effort to regain control. Suddenly he is affability itself. He waves his hand to silence the class, for the student to continue.

"You are working on the premise of duality," the Christian explains. "That, for example, there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science cannot even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism but has never seen, much less fully understood them. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, merely the absence of it."

The young man holds up a newspaper he takes from the desk of a neighbor who has been reading it. "Here is one of the most disgusting tabloids this country hosts, professor. Is there such a thing as immorality?" "Of course there is, now look..." "Wrong again, sir. You see, immorality is merely the absence of morality. Is there such a thing as injustice? No. Injustice is the absence of justice. Is there such a thing as evil?" The Christian pauses. "Isn't evil the absence of good?" The professor's face has turned an alarming color. He is so angry he is temporarily speechless.

The Christian continues. "If there is evil in the world, professor, and we all agree there is, then God, if he exists, must be accomplishing a work through the agency of evil. What is that work God is accomplishing? The Bible tells us it is to see if each one of us will, of our own free will, choose good over evil."

The professor bridles. "As a philosophical scientist, I don't view this matter as having anything to do with any choice; as a realist, I absolutely do not recognize the concept of God or any other theological factor as being part of the world equation because God is not observable."

"I would have thought that the absence of God's moral code in this world is probably one of the most observable phenomena going," the Christian replies. "Newspapers make billions of dollars reporting it every week! Tell me, professor, Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?" "If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do." "Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?" The professor makes a sucking sound with his teeth and gives his student a silent, stony stare.

"Professor. Since no-one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a priest?" "I'll overlook your impudence in the light of our philosophical discussion. Now, have you quite finished?" the professor hisses. "So you don't accept God's moral code to do what is righteous?" "I believe in what is - that's science!"

"Ah! SCIENCE!" the student's face splits into a grin. "Sir, you rightly state that science is the study of observed phenomena. Science too is a premise which is flawed..." "SCIENCE IS FLAWED..?" the professor splutters. The class is in an uproar. The Christian remains standing until the commotion has subsided. "To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, may I give you an example of what I mean?" The professor wisely keeps silent.

The Christian looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?" The class breaks out in laughter. The Christian points towards his elderly, crumbling tutor. "Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain...felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain?" No one appears to have done so.

The Christian shakes his head sadly. "It appears no-one here has had any sensory perception of the professor's brain whatsoever. Well, according to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science, the professor has no brain."

The class is in chaos. The Christian sits...because that is what a chair is for. An atheist has a reason, but no hope for his reason. A hypocrite has a hope, but no reason for his hope. A Christian has a reason for his hope and a hope for his reason; and, I might add: Life with Christ is an endless hope. Without Christ is a hopeless end.

Author unknown

[SaskMan]

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Without Christ is a hopeless end.



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Is this a roundabout way of saying my life is a hopeless end Buckee??? You don't wish to say that yourself so you quote some written work. I see your post as a way of bashing us atheists without saying it yourself.

[buckee]

God's word saskman,

There's no such thing as an atheist
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, that their bodies might be dishonored among them.
25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;
32 and, although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.


Who did Jesus come to save ?...the righteous ?
No, he came to save the lost, the unrighteous.

Who is righteous?, Jesus says that no one is good, no not even one. So, who did he come to save?...the lost....ALL of mankind, if it were possible.
I can't speak to anyone's heart, but God can, through his word and through the truths in his word.

[buckee]

Let me relate a little true story from my own life.

My wife has lost 4 children. 2 were lost early in pregnancy and 2 were lost rather later on, both tubal pregnancy. The last tubal pregnancy was a one in a million happening. After losing one child to a tubal pregnancy, she also lost that tube on the side of her Uterus. When she became pregnant again, the fertilized egg found a microscopic piece of where the tube used to be on the damaged side, lodged itself there and began to grow.At about 5 months the baby got so big, and that particular spot in her Uterus was so scared and weak, that the side of her Uterus blew out, and she began to bleed to death internally.
I was off in a logging camp at the time, about 250 miles from home, and the only person with her was my 11/2 year old daughter.
My wife knew something bad had happened inside of her. She was getting very weak and literally crawled across the street to the neighbours house to get help. My daughter followed her, close by her side, without being told a word.
I had to tell you all that, just so you would know why she arrived in the hospital.
They rushed her into emergency and she had a very slow pulse rate. By the time they got her on the table, she was dead. She was dead for a couple of minutes, and then her heart started beating again. All signs of life as we know it, had ceased during this time. According to what we know scientifically, she no longer existed for a couple of minutes there.

Now this is the amazing part. When she got into the recovery room and the nurse was standing by her, as she was coming around, My wife said "Why did you cut my tail-bone?"
The nurse said "What do you mean, cut your tail-bone"
My wife said, " When you slid that metal plate under me, you cut my tail-bone"

The nurse kind of looked astonished and called the doctor in.
She said to my wife "Now tell the doctor, what you just told me"
and she repeated herself.
The doctor said, "How could you possibly know that. You were under anaesthetic at the time, plus you were clinically dead at the time"
My wife said "I don't know how to explain this, but I was up in the air, in the corner of the room, watching you work on me. It was really strange, because although I knew I was still me, I wasn't in that body down there any more, and someone was there with me, but I didn't even look to see who it was."..............."Then, all of a sudden, I was going back down into my body and I don't remember anything after that. "
All the doctor and nurse could do was smile and look at each other and my wife in amazement.

Something happened that day, that not only defies science, but it also defies the atheist thinking that once your dead, that's it, game over, end of show, lights out. That experience proved to me that man does have a spirit, that is a living entity, independent of this body that it lives in. That not only defies science, but it also defies the simplicity thinking of atheism and evolution.
It throws a real wrench into evolution, because now we have not only the physical life to take into consideration, but a living spirit life, independent of the physical life.

[ParrotHead]

Why would anyone be offended by anything?

It's their shallow little way of standing up and trying to be noticed by anyone that is stupid enough to listen.

[buckee]

The above happening in our lives, is just something that made us both seek God.
My wife and I both come from a past of drunkenness, drugs and what have you. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
When that day came, that my wife and I confessed or sins and asked Jesus to come into our hearts and and not only save us by his grace, but help us change our lives ..He did come in. I felt him come into my heart and my life. He changed me. It was like I finally could see and hear for the first time.
That was over 18 years ago now.
I have proven two things in my life. (1)I have proven to myself that I am a weak, rather pathetic person and would sooner serve myself than an unseen God .(2) I can not live my life now without Him.
I live my life for a different reason now, it's not about me, it's about him.
Am I perfect...NO
Am I saved ...YES


Are you perfect....NO
Do you want to be saved ....?? (maybe not quite yet eh) http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[dogdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Without Christ is a hopeless end.



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Is this a roundabout way of saying my life is a hopeless end Buckee??? You don't wish to say that yourself so you quote some written work. I see your post as a way of bashing us atheists without saying it yourself.

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Sask---If your belief is that when you die that's it--nothing happens except you get buried, then that would be to me a hopeless ending. The knowing that I am going to heaven to spend Eternity with my Creator is to me "The Meaning of Life"---without that I would feel I would have a hopeless ending.

God created man with a mind---a mind to make choices. Those choices are where the majority of evil in this world comes from. I can't explain why a child develops cancer and dies and I am sure if that happened to my child I would feel angry towards my Creator. God didn't make us robots to follow his command--he gave us a choice to accept him--and a choice to sin. I have plenty of sin that has been washed away--but every sin I committed was a choice made by me.

The hardest part I have understanding of atheism is why in the world would anyone even want to take the chance of spending eternity any where else but with the Almighty!

todd

[buckee]

[ QUOTE ]
Is this a roundabout way of saying my life is a hopeless end Buckee??? You don't wish to say that yourself so you quote some written work. I see your post as a way of bashing us atheists without saying it yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

You said your life was a hopeless end, before I ever did. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
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I believe that when i die I am gone, my life is over and that is that. I woin't worry about the end b/c when the end comes I will not know

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[SaskMan]

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God's word saskman,

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Who says???? A book that was written long before any of our time??????? http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif I will never buy it.

[SaskMan]

You guys can push your thoughts and beliefs towards me all you want, you won't change my opinion.

You can tell me stories and reasons why you are a believer, you won't change my opinion.

You can assumme b/c I am a non believer that my life is a hopeless end, I'll disagree. Yes it'll end but hopelessly?? I don't think so, I'll have loved and been loved, spent time doing what I learned to love in life. Had children to carry on my memory and to have children of their own but in time I'll be gone and forgotten. How often do you think of your grandfather's grandfather??? In time we'll all be forgotten. You can think my life is a hopeless end, I'll choose to think otherwise.

Just don't think I'm a bad person b/c I'm an atheist. I'm a good father, a good husband, a good son, a good brother, a good school teacher, a good friend and a good neighbour. I don't agree with your beliefs but I don't judge people based on their beliefs, if I did, one of my closest friends would not be a friend at all. Alot of times you Christians give the impression that you arte better than us who are not believers and though you may believe I'm not sure if that constitutes as reason enough for you to be any better that I or any other non believer.

[dogdoc]

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Just don't think I'm a bad person b/c I'm an atheist. I'm a good father, a good husband, a good son, a good brother, a good school teacher, a good friend and a good neighbour. I don't agree with your beliefs but I don't judge people based on their beliefs, if I did, one of my closest friends would not be a friend at all. Alot of times you Christians give the impression that you arte better than us who are not believers and though you may believe I'm not sure if that constitutes as reason enough for you to be any better that I or any other non believer.


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Sask---I think you're totally off base here partner. I have never thought you were a bad person and I have never thought as myself or any other person better than you. I don't know you personally but I am sure you are a great father, great husband, great teacher---I haven't seen anyone on here accuse you of being otherwise. I am just sharing my beliefs just like you are.

take care
todd

[fisherguy]

In short, i believe there is no god because to me it seems like fiction. I am not offended by Christianity, i am offended when christians try to tell me i am a sinner, a heathen, a bad person, or when they try to cram religion down my throat and convert me. I let you have your beliefs, so how about you let me have mine.

[buckee]

[ QUOTE ]
I let you have your beliefs, so how about you let me have mine.


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No one here has you tied to a fence-post giving you 50 lashes with a wet noodle, now ...LOL http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif No one is stopping you from believing what you want to believe.

I don't think I'm better than a non-believer. On the contrary, I believe I'm a sinner. The only difference is, I believe God's word and that now I'm a saved sinner.
If you don't believe there is any such thing as sin or that you've never sinned, then all the power to ya. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

It's kind of odd that everytime a Christian tries to tell the world about the "GOOD NEWS" of Jesus Christ, it is accepted as "BAD NEWS" instead. But I can understand it too, because I was there once.

If you found a treasure, so precious, and so beautiful and abundant, that if you shared it, you would never be lacking from it's riches, wouldn't you want to share it with anyone who would care to share it ? And if some wouldn't believe you, would that stop you from sharing it to others ?

Lets face it guys and girls, unbelievers think Christians are always trying to cram their beliefs down their throats, just for saying what they believe is true, but you don't hear too many Christians accusing unbelievers of cramming unbelief down their throats. Why?, because we already chewed and swallowed that all before ourselves. We're human beings too, just like you.
Why does anyone act so surprised and offended at the mention of sin, or God, or redemption, unless you truely believe there is no such thing. And if you believe there is no such thing as sin, then why be offended if someone else does. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[SaskMan]

[ QUOTE ]
And if you believe there is no such thing as sin, then why be offended if someone else does

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I never said that I am offended by anyone else's beliefs. You are the one who quoted a life without Christ is a hopeless end. In my opinion that is not sharing something something you deem a treasure or precious, it's a way of belittling someone who has made the opposite choice.

[horst]

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Lets face it guys and girls, unbelievers think Christians are always trying to cram their beliefs down their throats, just for saying what they believe is true,

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While were facing things we may as well face the fact that some Christians dont know when enough is enough.If someones repeatedly said they dont care to have Christian beliefs forced on them and the same person keeps coming back over and over, quoting scripture, telling stories, and the likes of that then theyve passed sharing thier beliefs and went straight to cramming it down someones throat.You cant tell me that doesnt happen a lot because weve all seen it in here.

When a christians trying to force thier beliefs on someone though they call it spreading a message.When an athiest does the same thing its called being intolerant of others beliefs.If were gonna face facts lets face them all.Funny thing is you gotta die to find out who wins the argument, otherwise all this is just a bunch of guesework http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[buckee]

Well my friends, all I can say, is if your going to hear the good news of salvation, you gotta hear the bad news first, so you know what your being saved from.

And saskman, I never said your life was hopeless, your the one who has no hope after death. You said that not me.
God's message is one of hopefulness, not hopelessness.

And I'll end it there, because this is going no where right now.

[fisherguy]

Buckee, my comments were directed at a few individuals such as johnf who feel the need to constantly make us try to justify our beliefs, or constantly challenge them.

[dg]

There has been people medically revived before and no one could answer why. But there has been alot of innocent people killed for no reason too.

[dg]

If you truely believe, why ask for prayer when you are having a hard time? Don't you trust what the lord has put upon you? He has a plan. Don't question why. Suck it up and enjoy!

[slugshooter]

[ QUOTE ]
My question is about being offended. Why, if you believe there is no God...no life after this, are you so offended by Christianity?

Am I making a generalization here? Are there just some atheists that are militant in their belief and go out of their way to get offended by "one Nation under God" and "In God We Trust"?


[/ QUOTE ]

Getting back to marky's original topic, I do believe there are some atheists that are militant and have no tolerance for the beliefs of others just like some Christians are the same way. But like both examples, the most militant of these groups are in the minority, there aren't millions of atheists marching and burning down every church they come to, just like there aren't millions of Christians marching and burning down abortion clinics.

IMHO, the biggest entity responsible for the negative stories on both sides is........(drumroll).........THE MEDIA!! Surprise, Surprise. When an atheist or the ACLU files a lawsuit to stop prayer at a football game, the media jumps on it and reports it like front page news with gusto, likewise when some right wing religious nut sets fire to an abortion clinic or takes out a doctor with his high powered rifle, it's on the news like an epidemic is spreading, when all it is, is an isolated incident that if it hadn't been splashed all over the news would die down and noone would really care.

[Steven]

Some atheists are militant and will speak up and fight any Christian establishment, just like some Christians fight anyone who doesn't agree lock, stock and barrel with them. While some Christians keep to themselves, just like most atheists.

I can see how some atheists become zealots because when they tell a Christian they are atheist, one of two responses usually follow. 1)I'll pray for you. Okay, if you want to waste your time, go ahead, or, 2) you're going to h e l l . If you insist. There is an assumption that we are bad people and I'll put my track record of kindness up against anybody's, anyday. Not that it's a competition, but one can only take so much brow-beating before one snaps.

[dg]

[ QUOTE ]

I can see how some atheists become zealots because when they tell a Christian they are atheist, one of two responses usually follow. 1)I'll pray for you. Okay, if you want to waste your time, go ahead, or, 2) you're going to h e l l . If you insist. There is an assumption that we are bad people.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, it's sounds like the "I'm OK, You're Not OK" syndrome. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[dg]

[ QUOTE ]
If you truely believe, why ask for prayer when you are having a hard time? Don't you trust what the lord has put upon you? He has a plan. Don't question why. Suck it up and enjoy!

[/ QUOTE ]

[buckee]

[ QUOTE ]
If you truely believe, why ask for prayer when you are having a hard time? Don't you trust what the lord has put upon you? He has a plan. Don't question why. Suck it up and enjoy!

[/ QUOTE ]
Because God created us for himself and wants to have a relationship with us.
Because when they are answered, we know who to give thanks to.
Because when they are not answered in the way we wish, we can know God has others plans.
How can we draw closer to our creator if we don't communicate with him in prayer and ask for his guidance and help.
There's a 101 reasons to pray, even though God knows us better than we know ourselves, if for no other reason than to get closer to him.

To believe in God and not speak to him through prayer would be equal to getting Married, saying your "I do's" at the alter and never uttering a sound to your wife or even giving her a glance after that. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[dg]

http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[dg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Because God created us for himself and wants to have a relationship with us.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh really? I assume he has my phone number and address. If what you say is true, and I have a hard time believing, I would expect a "visit" since he wants a relationship.

[dg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
.
Because when they are not answered in the way we wish, we can know God has others plans.


[/ QUOTE ]

Oh I see. I'll tell that to the family members who lost love-ones during a war or 911, or from many of the senseless killings that go on day-to-day. That'll make them feel better......

[dg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

How can we draw closer to our creator if we don't communicate with him in prayer and ask for his guidance and help.


[/ QUOTE ]

Funny, he hasn't mentioned my name when I asked him talk to me. Communication is a two-way street. Not one.

[dg]

[ QUOTE ]
There's a 101 reasons to pray, even though God knows us better than we know ourselves, if for no other reason than to get closer to him.



[/ QUOTE ]
Well that explains everything! http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Gee, I'll go talk to a mirror and get a better response! http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[dg]

[ QUOTE ]
To believe in God and not speak to him through prayer would be equal to getting Married, saying your "I do's" at the alter and never uttering a sound to your wife or even giving her a glance after that. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, ok. I get it now. I should talk to my spouse and if she says nothing for 2000 years, I should accept it as okay. Dang, stupid me. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[dg]

That's what I thought.......................

[buckee]

Maybe you just haven't been listening

[dg]

http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[buckee]

Funny how mankind would rather believe in the god of his imagination and creation (the way he thinks God should be), rather than believe in the God of the bible. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[dg]

Imagination is a good thing. It's what allows people to dream about being around forever.........

[muggs]

Buckee, referring to the Professor story. Why did the author use terms like "aging panther"..."old and crumbling" "his bony fingers" to describe the Professor.

Those colorful expressions are all ways to control the reader's perception of the Professor, obviously in a negative way... If religion is all about free will, why do writings like these try so blatantly to control the readers mind?

[johnf]

[ QUOTE ]
You guys can push your thoughts and beliefs towards me all you want, you won't change my opinion.

You can tell me stories and reasons why you are a believer, you won't change my opinion.

You can assumme b/c I am a non believer that my life is a hopeless end, I'll disagree. Yes it'll end but hopelessly?? I don't think so, I'll have loved and been loved, spent time doing what I learned to love in life. Had children to carry on my memory and to have children of their own but in time I'll be gone and forgotten. How often do you think of your grandfather's grandfather??? In time we'll all be forgotten. You can think my life is a hopeless end, I'll choose to think otherwise.

Just don't think I'm a bad person b/c I'm an atheist. I'm a good father, a good husband, a good son, a good brother, a good school teacher, a good friend and a good neighbour. I don't agree with your beliefs but I don't judge people based on their beliefs, if I did, one of my closest friends would not be a friend at all. Alot of times you Christians give the impression that you arte better than us who are not believers and though you may believe I'm not sure if that constitutes as reason enough for you to be any better that I or any other non believer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't want to preach to you Saskman, just explain.

It is the central belief of the Christain faith that we share the "good news of Jesus Christ". We believe that there are a lot of wanderfull, good, ethical, moral people out there who go through life and are truly good people. But that if you do not accept that Jesus Christ was the the son of God, and that he died and rose again for the redemtion of all mans sins then you sentence yourself, through the act of rejection, to eternal h e l l.

We do not preach because we think we are better than anyone. On the contrary, we do it because we acknowledge that we are all weak and can not live right without the help of our creator. We preach because we want everyone to have the opportunity to have a relationship with the One who created this big ball we call home.

We do not hate anyone. But yes we do want to convert, because we want everyone to have the free gift of salvation.

God loves everyone, even those who don't acknowledge him.

You have always seemed like a very nice person Sask, you will be in my prayers.

But if there's not a God don't worry, it won't hurt anything. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[johnf]

[ QUOTE ]
Unfortunatly many of these posts have been viewed or taken as a bash on atheism. I am new to the forum but feel that no one has the right to tell others that their views are wrong or evil. Everyone was born with the ability to choose their own free will, for those that don't believe in God or a supreme being, that is for you to believe and you have that right. As for those that are offended by the fact that others have told them they will burn in ****, well, a belief in Christ alone will not save all. For my fellow Christians out there, don't stoke the fire for nonbelievers by claiming they will burn in **** and all Christians will be saved. Check out the epistle of James in the New Testament and read chapter 2 verses 14-20, faith without works is dead. A belief in Christ will not save one alone, following the Commandments and doing good deeds along with that belief will ensure salvation. The people on this post that do not share our Christian beliefs but do good works such as being a good father, brother, or husband will be better off than some that commit whoredoms, murders and other sins, but believe in God. I respect their opinion and I hope they respect my views as well. I feel that they are being great people and contribute much to society, even though it may not be in the way of religion. I know that they feel good about themselves, try to be good people and want to contribute to society. I just personally feel that the happiness they feel and the good feelings they get when doing something good for others comes from God, that is where we differ in opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you sure you want to get in a theological discussion here? There are some big hitters on here and by your prose I'm guessing your not one of them.

[preacherman]

[ QUOTE ]
Buckee, referring to the Professor story. Why did the author use terms like "aging panther"..."old and crumbling" "his bony fingers" to describe the Professor.

Those colorful expressions are all ways to control the reader's perception of the Professor, obviously in a negative way... If religion is all about free will, why do writings like these try so blatantly to control the readers mind?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sort of like most anything else that anyone would pick up on the magazine rack to read?

[johnf]

[ QUOTE ]
Buckee, my comments were directed at a few individuals such as johnf who feel the need to constantly make us try to justify our beliefs, or constantly challenge them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like to know why people believe what they believe. If you can't defend a position, then you must rethink the position. I can come back from almost anything with a biblical response. What's wrong with that. That's like telling a coach that he's wrong about a game when he's looking at the rule book.

As for challanging, yes I do. I even challenge people in my Sunday school class on why they believe something that I don't. Challange provokes thought. Is there anything wrong with that?

I've got some friends who are Hindu. They are very good moral people. We have lots of discussions on religion and why we believe what we believe.

Do I think they're going to h e l l? Yes, I do.

Why? Because the book that I base my beliefs on says they are.

He believes that I will come back as a mouse because I am to fearce in this lifetime.

We will know for sure who is right only when we die.

If I'm wrong the worst that could happen is absolutely nothing or I come back as a pin worm or gnat. If they're wrong and I'm right, then it's an eternity of torment.

I would rather error on the side of eternal joy.

[fisherguy]

You are allowed any beliefs you want, as am I. I jsut get aggrivated when people think their beliefs make them better than someone else.(look back to you posts in your thrread about aethiests contribution to society)

[johnf]

I don't think I am or any other Christian is any "better" than anyone.

The bible points out our faults more than anything. We (Christians) are commanded by the God to go out and preach the gospel everywhere. To not do so would be going against the very religion that we claim to be a part of.

[muggs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Buckee, referring to the Professor story. Why did the author use terms like "aging panther"..."old and crumbling" "his bony fingers" to describe the Professor.

Those colorful expressions are all ways to control the reader's perception of the Professor, obviously in a negative way... If religion is all about free will, why do writings like these try so blatantly to control the readers mind?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sort of like most anything else that anyone would pick up on the magazine rack to read?

[/ QUOTE ]

So are you saying Christians are resorting to the same tactics tabloids use, in order to recruit people?

I'm confused???

[slugshooter]

[ QUOTE ]

Are you sure you want to get in a theological discussion here? There are some big hitters on here and by your prose I'm guessing your not one of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Man, you're on a roll johnf, first you go after the atheists, and then you go after a fellow believer. How do you know our new friend on here doesn't have a degree in theology or something. Just because he chooses to not go on the offensive quoting scripture as it is looked up.

One thing I have noticed, is that this site has about the highest concentration of the ultra-religious I have ever seen, which frankly I find a little unbelievable, but here's a thought, all the ultra-religious believers on here should get together and form their own church, in about a week half of you would probably be gone, why? Because "Christians" can't get along, if it were as simple as believing in Christ and preaching the bible, there wouldn't be so many denominations out there, they all claim to preach the gospel, claim to be biblical, claim they have the truth, so either they are all right.....or are they all wrong??

[TreeWalker]

I can't fault JohnF...we are to "check up" on our brothers in Christ and keep them on the path....


I have to slightly correct the comment about being judged by our good deeds..... good works alone, will not get you into heaven..

QUOTE: "If I'm wrong the worst that could happen is absolutely nothing or I come back as a pin worm or gnat. If they're wrong and I'm right, then it's an eternity of torment.

I would rather error on the side of eternal joy."

Bingo...Yahtzee......tis has been what I've said for years........If I'm wrong, I'm not out anything.....but If I am right, then may God have Mercy......

[johnf]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Are you sure you want to get in a theological discussion here? There are some big hitters on here and by your prose I'm guessing your not one of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Man, you're on a roll johnf, first you go after the atheists, and then you go after a fellow believer. How do you know our new friend on here doesn't have a degree in theology or something. Just because he chooses to not go on the offensive quoting scripture as it is looked up.

One thing I have noticed, is that this site has about the highest concentration of the ultra-religious I have ever seen, which frankly I find a little unbelievable, but here's a thought, all the ultra-religious believers on here should get together and form their own church, in about a week half of you would probably be gone, why? Because "Christians" can't get along, if it were as simple as believing in Christ and preaching the bible, there wouldn't be so many denominations out there, they all claim to preach the gospel, claim to be biblical, claim they have the truth, so either they are all right.....or are they all wrong??

[/ QUOTE ]

Different denomintations are formed because of different enterpritations of the same scriptures or because of differecnt focus points in the gospel. These different denominations all have there strong and weak points. There are some very simple things in the gospel that are often misinturpreted by those who don't understand it all in context or those who don't take the time to resurch it's meaning as pertaining to the entire text. That's what I was refering to.

Have you ever thought that maybe there are a lot of religious people on here because of who and what we are. We see God's creation in a differnt way then your average nine to five'r. I think being a hunter can bring you closer to God than a lot of other hobbies. It's no suprise to me that the men and women who are closest to God's creation are closer to Him.

As far as "going after someone" yes I do. I callange anything or anyone that I don't agree with. You should know that by now. If someone makes a statement that I think is incorrect, I will challange it. Just as you have challenged me.

What's wrong with a good debate sluggo.

[preacherman]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, JohnF, I don't really want to get into with you but I believe that everyone will be judged according to their deeds when this life ends. Maybe you should read the Bible a little more and visit a few more churches so you can see that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry there wrmdnkr, but it might need to be you who goes back and checks up on your Biblical theology a little bit.........because no where in the Bible does it say that it is by your works or your deeds that you are going to heaven. Matter of fact, Paul said in Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast"...........so before you speak, you might want to stop and think! Don't mean to be misunderstood or misinterpreted........it just bothers me when someone misquotes the Word of God!

[johnf]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, JohnF, I don't really want to get into with you but <font color="red"> 1. </font> I believe that everyone will be judged according to their deeds when this life ends. <font color="red"> 2. </font> Who's to say that one of these Atheists here hasn't lived a better life than you or I? <font color="red"> 3 </font> Maybe you should read the Bible a little more and visit a few more churches so you can see that. <font color="red"> 4. </font> If you believe that you are definatly saved because of your belief in Christ no matter what else you do in this life, then why aren't you out doing whatever you want? Why do you study the Bible if you have nothing more to gain. Not everyone shares the same views as you, <font color="red"> 5 </font> if you want to PM me maybe I can help you out with a few scriptures and some advice on how to relate to people that. <font color="red"> 6. aren't "going to heaven" like you. </font> I respect your opinion to a certain point, but think you go about things the wrong way. <font color="red"> 7 </font> Telling people they will burn will not scare them into believing what you do,only the Holy spirit that they feel from your own testimony and your example will.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. But if you are in the lambs book of life you are forgiven of your inequities. I don't want to be judged for the miserable person that I am, so I rely on the blood of Christ to cover my sins.

2. Jesus did. "No one comes to the Father execpt through the Son."

3. I read the bible almsost daily and spent 2 years after being saved visiting and studying different christain denominations teachings and how they applied them to everyday life.

4. We are know by man by our good works not by God. I think you have the tail wagging the dog here. You don't get saved by doing good works, you do good works because you are saved. Good works are not the same to God as they are to "worldly" man. Yes you must love your neighbor and do unto the least and everything else that some non-believers do, but you must also have accepted the gift of salvation. If you have not done that, then you are no better off (eternally) then those who turn their backs on the Lord and do great atrosities in the world.

5. If there is a scripture that I've missed, feel free to put in on this tread. If I've missed it, there are a LOT of people who have and need to see it. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

6. I'm so sure I'm going to heaven that I would swing over the gates of h e l l with on a roll of toilet paper with a squirtgun in my hand.

7. People need to know the wages of sin. Not just every day sins, but the greatest sin of all, the sin of unbelief.


Not accepting Christ as Lord and Savior is the only sin that will keep you out of heaven. When you are saved and the Holy Spirit comes into your heart you will feel the need to do God's work, to study His word and to spread His gospel. This does not mean you will do it, but you will not have peace within yourself unless you do.

[TreeWalker]

I think the Book of Romans touches on just about every subject that's been hit on lately........for those maybe interested I would concentrate especially on Chapter 8-12, 14 and then 15....

And then for our critics and my fellow brothers, i leave you with this....

I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I am full of joy over you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil.

[SaskMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Not accepting Christ as Lord and Savior is the only sin that will keep you out of heaven. When you are saved and the Holy Spirit comes into your heart you will feel the need to do God's work, to study His word and to spread His gospel. This does not mean you will do it, but you will not have peace within yourself unless you do

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what we mean when we say we don't care what people believe just don't go pushing it on those of us who don't. John, this is nothing more than another derogatory comment directed at people like me.

By the way............I have alot of peace within myself, maybe you should look in the mirror, if you have to preach to others how to live, maybe you yourself are not at peace.

[TreeWalker]

It is our duty as Christians to spread the gospel.......if there isn't somebody to preach it, there certainly won't be anybody hearing it....I think he already said that though.......

Once again, are those of you that are athiests, willing to accept the consequences of being wrong ?? If we're wrong, we lose nothing......if you're wrong.....well let's just say, I wouldn't want to be in your shoes.....

Have any of you studied the differnet versions of what He!! is supposed to be like....let alone to spend eternity there......no thanks...not for me...not willing to play those odds...

Thanksfully, the Lord has been gracious enough to let me see the error of my ways.....course where I was at one point, there was no way but up.....praise be to God... http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[TreeWalker]

[ QUOTE ]

By the way............I have alot of peace within myself, maybe you should look in the mirror, if you have to preach to others how to live, maybe you yourself are not at peace.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I can speak for all of us, saying it's not that we don't have peace.....we have the peace of God within us.....but being followers of Christ, we are also under more torment from Satan.......sure it would be simple to take the easy way out.......but the stakes are too high.

We simply care for our friends...online or whatever....I've got friends here I've never met.....and even though I debate with some of you, I still consider you my friends....we simply want to help and to spread the good word.....

http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[johnf]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not accepting Christ as Lord and Savior is the only sin that will keep you out of heaven. When you are saved and the Holy Spirit comes into your heart you will feel the need to do God's work, to study His word and to spread His gospel. This does not mean you <font color="red"> (a person who is already a Christain) </font>will do it, but you will not have peace within yourself unless you do

[/ QUOTE ]



This is what we mean when we say we don't care what people believe just don't go pushing it on those of us who don't. John, this is nothing more than another derogatory comment directed at people like me.

By the way............I have alot of peace within myself, maybe you should look in the mirror, if you have to preach to others how to live, maybe you yourself are not at peace.

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="red"> This is not something that pertains to the unsaved. </font>

If you don't believe in God then by definition you are unsaved. This has nothing to do with you as a person, as a man, teacher, father or whatever. This statement is about your final destination after death. If you don't believe in God, heaven or **** there is no way this statement should be offensive.

I don't understand how that is a derogatory statement. This is simply what I believe. You questioned why I believe something. If you don't like the answer I'm sorry.

Again, I base my answers on biblical teaching and will give them accordingly.

[TreeWalker]

I don't get all of this complaining about comments being derogatory...or Christians pushing there beliefs on others.........

To have no belief, is basicly nothing...how can you get offended over nothing......for you to beleive in God is something...to believe in Satan is something (not good, but more than nothing)......Athiests believe in nothing religiously........so why do you get offended by religious discussion.......seems to me what you are interpreting as "offending" is actually "convicting"........I don't like being "convited" myself.....means I'm doing something wrong......http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

I think Buckee touched on it in the other "Athiest" thread.....even Athiests have the sense of right and wrong instilled in them since birth....makes sense then, that they would be convicted about wrongdoing just as the Christian would........being Born Again, it is easier to recognize these convictions, and try to steer myself down the right path before I get there......

Testimony: I used to be bad drunk....couldn't harly pass a liquor store or bar without having to stop in if I had free time.......but it ended up Christ saved me and my Marriage.......even now, I found myself drawn to these places, but feel overly convited before I even get there.......the temptations are there, but so also is God telling me it is not a good idea to go down that road again........I will admit, there have been times I have failed as a Christian, and have paid for those ill-made decisions...I assure you....