Philosophy Question

[Tominator]

Geared mostly towards the aethists, because I'm pretty sure I know the Christians' answer.

Who started all this?

I'm talking about the Universe.

Don't say "Big Bang", because somebody or something had to put that together.

Where did it all come from?

[fisherguy]

THe answer is nobody knows. I look at it this way...pretty confident things are more than a couple thousand years old, and that one being did not do it all in six days. I am more of a person who bases things on logic, and probabilities...and none of that supports the biblical explanation.

[Steven]

The same answer I gave in the other thread...

[ QUOTE ]

I don't claim to know the origins of the universe, but I don't see any greater odds for an all-powerful creator than I do for evolution. And if for every effect there must be a cause, then someone or something must've created god. Correct? Or is god the one thing that the rule doesn't apply? If the rule doesn't apply to god, who's to say that the rule doesn't apply for anything else?


[/ QUOTE ]

That's my opinion and any Christian that says 'god' is stating their opinion. Mine is just as valid.

[dg]

[ QUOTE ]
THe answer is nobody knows. I look at it this way...pretty confident things are more than a couple thousand years old, and that one being did not do it all in six days. I am more of a person who bases things on logic, and probabilities...and none of that supports the biblical explanation.

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean proven facts? Now we'll have none of that! http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Verse so-and-so says written by some ? said. Again, an aircraft flys over our head in 2005, so what. But in 0000, I wonder what they would have said? Oh my god? http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Tominator]

[ QUOTE ]
The same answer I gave in the other thread...

[ QUOTE ]

I don't claim to know the origins of the universe, but I don't see any greater odds for an all-powerful creator than I do for evolution. And if for every effect there must be a cause, then someone or something must've created god. Correct? Or is god the one thing that the rule doesn't apply? If the rule doesn't apply to god, who's to say that the rule doesn't apply for anything else?


[/ QUOTE ]

That's my opinion and any Christian that says 'god' is stating their opinion. Mine is just as valid.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never mentioned God, bible, number of years universe has been around, evolution or anything like that. I asked a simple question:

Who or what put all "this" into motion?

[Tominator]

[ QUOTE ]
And if for every effect there must be a cause, then someone or something must've created god. Correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, correct. Now, who created that god?

See, you've fallen into the "infinite regression" trap.

[MichiganHuntr1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And if for every effect there must be a cause, then someone or something must've created god. Correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, correct. Now, who created that god?

See, you've fallen into the "infinite regression" trap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup,
Which Came first, the Chicken or the Egg?

[Steven]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And if for every effect there must be a cause, then someone or something must've created god. Correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, correct. Now, who created that god?

See, you've fallen into the "infinite regression" trap.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I didn't. I was pointing out how easy it is to, though. In the other thread, somebody, don't remember who, brought it up that every effect has a cause, but conveniently left out the idea that, if this were true, something would've had to create god.

Myself, not believing in god, don't have any need to explain god. I also admit that I don't know the origin of the universe, or claim to have the answer. I don't think we will ever know the truth. Even christians.

[dg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And if for every effect there must be a cause, then someone or something must've created god. Correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, correct. Now, who created that god?

See, you've fallen into the "infinite regression" trap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but at least he said he didn't know. It's alot different referencing a verse and claiming it as the ultimate truth from a man-written book that's unexplainable. If Jesus is true, and showed his face today, many more would follow his word. But we as human's have a brain to think with. Why doesn't he stop by and say hi "to his children"? http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif He loves us. Again, unexplainable happenings by unknowledgeable folks. So if the aircraft flew over 2000 years ago, what would they say? Oh my god! http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Steven]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The same answer I gave in the other thread...

[ QUOTE ]

I don't claim to know the origins of the universe, but I don't see any greater odds for an all-powerful creator than I do for evolution. And if for every effect there must be a cause, then someone or something must've created god. Correct? Or is god the one thing that the rule doesn't apply? If the rule doesn't apply to god, who's to say that the rule doesn't apply for anything else?


[/ QUOTE ]

That's my opinion and any Christian that says 'god' is stating their opinion. Mine is just as valid.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never mentioned God, bible, number of years universe has been around, evolution or anything like that. I asked a simple question:

Who or what put all "this" into motion?

[/ QUOTE ]

I never mentioned the bible or number of years the universe has been around either. Since the 2 prevailant ideas are creation and evolution. I simply compared the 2 without endorsing either.

Since you apparently wanted me to answer a different question, it would help if you posted it. Also, having stated that you know what the christians would post and directing the question at atheists, sure you never said god, but it was implied.

Or we can argue semantics all night, either way is fine with me.

[dg]

[ QUOTE ]
Geared mostly towards the aethists, because I'm pretty sure I know the Christians' answer.

Who started all this?

I'm talking about the Universe.

Don't say "Big Bang", because somebody or something had to put that together.

Where did it all come from?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why don't you tell me?

[spyderpancake]

God is the only possible explanation. He has always been around. Our human minds can't comprehend that. Explain to me when time began. It didn't. Our finite minds cannot fathom something that doesn't have a beginning and an end. Was there ever a point when there was nothing and then suddenly everything started appearing? I don't think so. I think an Eternal Supernatural God is the only way any of this could have started. You have to admit that at some point something started everything. Science proves that the universe is slowly running down. If that is true, it had to have started sometime. Like I have said, for anyone who really thinks about it with an open mind, creation is the only logical answer.

[dogdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think we will ever know the truth

[/ QUOTE ]

I will--when I meet the Creator http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Steven]

[ QUOTE ]
Like I have said, for anyone who really thinks about it with an open mind, creation is the only logical answer.

[/ QUOTE ]

And, an 'open mind' means, of course, 'from my point of view'.

[horst]

I have no problem with the theory of evolution.Even now people and animals continue adapting to a ever changing world.Theres lots of dead planets out there, this one may have been just different enough to produce life, crazy things happen here all the time, ice ages, global warming, drought, floods, fire, etc...Whos to say any combination of these events couldnt have started the first lifeforms on this planet and they just continued to evolve as the planet did.Weve went from dinosaurs to modern life in a few thousand years, theres proof of that everywhere, so why couldnt things all living things have evolved in that fashion?

[fisherguy]

Mmmm horst we came from dinosaurs to here in hundreds of millions of years(for those of us who choose to believe the scientific community). As far as the very first start of things...i have thought about that and like i said before i have no clue how that came. I just can't reconcile all the things in the bible that do not line up with what i consider to be basic science.
Basically it comes down to this IMO, humans have a need to try to explain things. Some look to science, some to religion. To me, science seems to make more sense. That is my opinion, and may or may not be fact.

[buckee]

Here's a couple of interesting links you might like to read through. If not, well that's your descission.

http://www.rbc.org/ds/q0402/point3.html

http://www.exchangedlife.com/Creation/evol-fact.htm

http://www.souldevice.org/christian_science.html

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/dinos.shtml

[fisherguy]

well i read the first(ok, the first webpage lol) and all it is is claims, with no evidenc other than bible quotes. The second lost my interest when it claims that evolution is wrong because if you took current population growth, and had two people billions of years ago, the worl pop would be some astronomical #. That is silly since nobody claims humans have been around for billions of years lol. I will read more tomorrow...but so far it has been the same old arguments, with no evidence other than "the bible says so". I have no doubt that some things in the bible are either true, or based on truth, but they are the ones such as famines, earthquakes etc., not someone rising from the dead. Perhaps the next two sites will have some better backing to their claims.

[fisherguy]

Ok, i couldn't go to bed yet lol. # 3 has some more specific, yet at the same time very general points. All are dependant on if translations are accurate, and how you interpret them. More importantly i fail to see how that proves god exists, or the bible is all true. All it proves is that the bible includes things that seem to show a general understanding of some basic princliples such as evaporation.
Now the last one really makes me laugh! I stopped reading at the point where it says the bible is all true because nobody has ever proven it contains any false information. So if i say i am an alien from mars it is true right? See i doubt any of you can prove it is not true anymore that someone can prove the world is more than 2000 to 6000 years old.

[Steven]

The first link. How better to prove the accuracy of the bible than by quoting other bible verses? I could write a book and quote that same book as proof that it's true? Proves nothing. Next.

The second bored me to tears nearly.

The third, I'm with fisherguy on this one. It doesn't prove much. It's all up to translation.

The 4th link.. wow, what can be said about that? Dragons? Seriously.

[buckee]

http://www.remnantofgod.org/JOE-GIANT2.jpg


http://www.remnantofgod.org/creation_htm_smartbutton2.gif

Evolutionists have constructed the Geologic Column in order to illustrate the supposed progression of "primitive" life forms to "more complex" systems we observe today. Yet, "since only a small percentage of the earth's surface obeys even a … portion of the geologic column…the claim of their having taken place to form a continuum of rock/life/time…over the earth is therefore a fantastic and imaginative contrivance.1" "The lack of transitional series cannot be explained as being due to the scarcity of material. The deficiencies are real, they will never be filled."2 This supposed column is actually saturated with "polystrate fossils" (fossils extending from one geologic layer to another) that tie all the layers to one time-frame. "To the unprejudiced, the fossil record of plants is in favor of special creation."

http://www.remnantofgod.org/creation_htm_smartbutton3.gif
Dr. Thomas Barnes, Emeritus Professor of Physics at the University of Texas at El Paso, has published the definitive work in this field.4 Scientific observations since 1829 have shown that the earth's magnetic field has been measurably decaying at an exponential rate, demonstrating its half-life to be approximately 1,400 years. In practical application its strength 20,000 years ago would approximate that of a magnetic star. Under those conditions many of the atoms necessary for life processes could not form. These data demonstrate that earth's entire history is young, within a few thousand of years.

http://www.remnantofgod.org/creation_htm_smartbutton4.gif
The Biblical record clearly describes a global Flood during Noah's day. Additionally, there are hundreds of Flood traditions handed down through cultures all over the world. 5 M.E. Clark and Henry Voss have demonstrated the scientific validity of such a Flood providing the sedimentary layering we see on every continent. 6 Secular scholars report very rapid sedimentation and periods of great carbonate deposition in earth's sedimentary layers..7 It is now possible to prove the historical reality of the Biblical Flood.8

http://www.remnantofgod.org/creation_htm_smartbutton5.gif
World population growth rate in recent times is about 2% per year. Practicable application of growth rate throughout human history would be about half that number. Wars, disease, famine, etc. have wiped out approximately one third of the population on average every 82 years. Starting with eight people, and applying these growth rates since the Flood of Noah's day (about 4500 years ago) would give a total human population at just under six billion people. However, application on an evolutionary time scale runs into major difficulties. Starting with one "couple" just 41,000 years ago would give us a total population of 2 x 1089. 9The universe does not have space to hold so many bodies.

http://www.remnantofgod.org/creation_htm_smartbutton6.gif
Physicist Robert Gentry has reported isolated radio halos of polonuim-214 in crystalline granite. The half-life of this element is 0.000164 seconds! To record the existence of this element in such short time span, the granite must be in crystalline state instantaneously.10 This runs counter to evolutionary estimates of 300 million years for granite to form.

http://www.remnantofgod.org/creation_htm_smartbutton7.gif
Man-made artifacts - such as the hammer in Cretaceous rock, a human sandal print with trilobite in Cambrian rock, human footprints and a handprint in Cretaceous rock – point to the fact that all the supposed geologic periods actually occurred at the same time in the recent past.11

http://www.remnantofgod.org/creation_htm_smartbutton8.gif
Physicist Melvin Cook, Nobel Prize medalist found that helium-4 enters our atmosphere from solar wind and radioactive decay of uranium. At present rates our atmosphere would accumulate current helium-4 amounts in less than 10,000 years.12

http://www.remnantofgod.org/creation_htm_smartbutton9.gif
Astronomical estimates of the distance to various galaxies gives conflicting data. 13The Biblical Record refers to the expansion of space by the Creator14. Astrophysicist Russell Humphries demonstrates that such space expansion would dilate time in distant space.15 This could explain a recent creation with great distances to the stars.

http://www.remnantofgod.org/creation_htm_smartbutton10.gif
A living cell is so awesomely complex that its interdependent components stagger the imagination and defy evolutionary explanations. A minimal cell contains over 60,000 proteins of 100 different configurations.16 The chance of this assemblage occurring by chance is 1 in 10 4,478,296 .17

http://www.remnantofgod.org/creation_htm_smartbutton11.gif
The human brain is the most complicated structure in the known universe.18 It contains over 100 billion cells, each with over 50,000 neuron connections to other brain cells.19 This structure receives over 100 million separate signals from the total human body every second. If we learned something new every second of our lives, it would take three million years to exhaust the capacity of the human brain. 20 In addition to conscious thought, people can actually reason, anticipate consequences, and devise plans – all without knowing they are doing so.21

[buckee]

[ QUOTE ]
The first link. How better to prove the accuracy of the bible than by quoting other bible verses? I could write a book and quote that same book as proof that it's true? Proves nothing. Next.

[/ QUOTE ]


You obviously weren't paying attention to what you were reading Racksie, if that's all you got from #1 link. It sounds to me like you have your mind made up and nothing will move it, not even sound reasoning.
Prophecy man, Prophecy. The fulfilled prophecies, throughout the ages of time alone in the bible, proves it's accuracy and authenticity. Jesus fulfilled every single prophecy concerning the coming Messiah, bar none. It's Historical authenticity is being explored and authenticated in our day man. How can you just discard all that as myth and fantasy ? http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[ QUOTE ]
The second bored me to tears nearly.


[/ QUOTE ]
Nothing wrong with a little dialog and reasoning now is there. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
[ QUOTE ]
All it proves is that the bible includes things that seem to show a general understanding of some basic princliples such as evaporation.


[/ QUOTE ]
I think you guys left your thinking caps at home. Those so called basic principles, were not known to man by any scientific community way back then guys. That's the whole point here. We know them now, yes, but these things were revieled to men of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit, before a scientist ever even proved such things to be true.

[fisherguy]

My issue with thsi whole thing is that you are accusing us of being closed minded and having our minds made up, when you yourself have your mind made up that the bible is true. And what makes your reasoning any more sound than ours? Opinion, and guess what, we all have our own opinions. And Of course Jesus fulfilled the prophecies...they were recorded after his death. Why record something that is wrong, or partially accurate, when you can choose to instead record waht agrees, or change what happened to agree. Do i know this is what happened? Of course not, but it is possible.

[fisherguy]

[ QUOTE ]
That's the whole point here. We know them now, yes, but these things were revieled to men of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit, before a scientist ever even proved such things to be true.

[/ QUOTE ]
And the inuit understood the phenomenon of snow blindness, or the insulating qualities of snow before scientists. Yet they do not believe in the one christian god(well some are converts now, but at that time they believed in many gods) so how did they learn this without the Holy Spirit inspiring them?

[Tominator]

[ QUOTE ]
sure you never said god, but it was implied.


[/ QUOTE ]

Granted, implied only because I'm a Christian.

I guess I was just trying to get you to think philosophically about how all this started. If you're not curious about it, that's cool. I tend to look up at the night sky and wonder why, and get boggled that the light I'm seeing from that star originated billions of year ago, and might not even exist anymore.

This post isn't meant to anger anyone, like I said, I'm just trying to get y'all to think, and wonder.

But it's cool if you don't want to.

And BTW--Y'all are getting off track. Go back and read the original post. This has become an argument about evolution.

Simple question, and I think only 2 or 3 have answered (one person even answered the way I think), How did all this matter get set into motion?

[Tominator]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Geared mostly towards the aethists, because I'm pretty sure I know the Christians' answer.

Who started all this?

I'm talking about the Universe.

Don't say "Big Bang", because somebody or something had to put that together.

Where did it all come from?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why don't you tell me?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can only tell you what I believe, and no, I don't have any proof.

Some mysteries might not ever be explained.

This fact is one of the things I've been struggling with over the last 2 years.

[wtnhunt]

[ QUOTE ]
This fact is one of the things I've been struggling with over the last 2 years.

[/ QUOTE ]

Although there are some aspects that dont logically make sense I know that God created the heavens and the earth. What I dont understand is how the 7 days in which he created all living things, there was no mention of prehistoric life we know to have existed. The only thing in my mind that comes to make any sense is that the idea of days may not have been what we know as days today.

Have had questions such as this for quite some time Chris.

Another is why did Noah take mosquitoes, roaches and other insects on the ark? All living things not on the ark were supposedly destroyed in the flood.

[horst]

[ QUOTE ]
Mmmm horst we came from dinosaurs to here in hundreds of millions of years

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, i meant million but typed thousand, I was on my way to bed when I found this post LOL http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

But the points the same, things are evolving and being recreated all the time on this planet.A million years from now people may no longer exist, and this whole thing will be starting over again.Who knows?

[buckee]

[ QUOTE ]
Another is why did Noah take mosquitoes, roaches and other insects on the ark? All living things not on the ark were supposedly destroyed in the flood

[/ QUOTE ]
I used to wonder about that too, but the answer is there. We tend to picture Noah frantically running around collecting all these living creatures , but if you read carefully, God caused the animals to come to Noah. So whatever living creatures came were saved and whichever did not come, were not.
Dinosaurs existed before the flood but were destroyed for reasons unknown to us.
"And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.
Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive."

[dg]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Another is why did Noah take mosquitoes, roaches and other insects on the ark? All living things not on the ark were supposedly destroyed in the flood

[/ QUOTE ]
I used to wonder about that too, but the answer is there. We tend to picture Noah frantically running around collecting all these living creatures , but if you read carefully, God caused the animals to come to Noah. So whatever living creatures came were saved and whichever did not come, were not.
Dinosaurs existed before the flood but were destroyed for reasons unknown to us.
"And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.
Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive."

[/ QUOTE ]

And there you have it folks. That explains how hundreds of different animals all got on one boat. Thanks. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

He should have just snapped his fingers instead of creating something and then flooding the place. But he knows what he's doing........

[buckee]

It's nice to know I've provided you with so much laughter. Be careful you don't fall down. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[dogdoc]

I used to wonder also about insects like mosquitoes---but after my trip to Alaska and getting bit by mosquitoes the size of small birds I quickly figured it out. If a darn mosquite egg can sit dormant for 8 months out of the year in 10 feet of snow then a few must have survived the flood!

[fisherguy]

ok, here is a serious question, not trying to be a smart a##. The flood flooded the earth, #1...where did all this water go that was enough to submerge all the land, and two, how did animals from all over teh world get to the ark. Ex. moose, elk, polar bear, deer from north america. How did they get all the way to the ark?

[dogdoc]

fisherguy---good question. I wish I had all the answers that would leave no doubt in your mind. The faith that I have in Jesus Christ is good enough for me. There are a lot of things in the bible that makes your head hurt when you think about it enough.

Where in the heck did Cane and Abel's wives come from http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif---only way I know how to answer it is if God made Adam and Eve he can sure make a couple more girls for the boys http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Genesis 7:15---"Every creature that had the breath of life came to Noah in the boat in groups of two."

He can turn water into wine, he healed the sick, he rasied the dead, he parted the seas---if he can do that then he can get those critters in the ark---and around October I thank him every day that he included the Whitetail Deer---and every spring I thank him that he inluded the Wild Turkey http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Where did the water go?

Genesis 8: 1-4----"He (God) made a wind blow over the earth, and the water went down. The underground springs stopped flowing, and the clouds in the sky stopped pouring down rain. The water that covered the earth began to go down. After 150 days it had gone down so much that the boat touched land again http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif"

I store my Bass boat in the garage. If I fish in the rain and then put the wet boat in the garage is starts to get the soiled water smell after a few days. So when ever it rains and the carpet in my boat is wet I plug in a large box fan to "make wind" to evaporate the water---I believe that is what happend when God made a wind blow over the earth.

fisherguy--I hope you don't think I'm trying to cram my religion down your throat. I would never do that. I've never felt comfortable going door to door and witnessing, going up to a stranger and witnessing. I've never felt like I've tried to cram God down people's throat. If you met me you might not even know that I am Christian. I don't carry a bible with me, no Christian bumper stickers on my truck. I've never considered myself a goodie-to-shoes type person. But if someone wants to talk about Jesus Christ or religion I'll be there.

If you are the type of person that has to actually see something to believe it then it will be hard to get you to believe the bible. I can't explain everything in the Bible. I can't explain how God has always been and always will be--I wish I could--I really do---but when I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Saviour I put my Faith in him and I just know that there is a God---the God that sent his son to die for me~~~~~~oh--getting warm and fuzzy again http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

take care
todd

[muggs]

500 years ago, they thought the Earth was the center of the universe and that it was flat. Our theories could turn out to be just as obsurded in another 500 years. Who knows.

Seeing how moleculs make up everything, including humans, I think the idea that everything could have been created from scientific explanations makes sense.

But the fact that humans have such a highly developed level of spirtuality, I think a higher power has to be at work.

Whatever it is, I'm sure it's beyond our comprehension.

Do I think the world was created in 6 days...NO. Do I believe there is a higher power...YES. Do I believe Christianity should be taken as the sole explanation for all this NO.

I think religion gives to many convienient answers to all this deep questions. It provides answers to questions that are beyond human comprehension.

Bottomline, I believe in God, but not organized religion.

[johnf]

[ QUOTE ]
. It's alot different referencing a verse and claiming it as the ultimate truth from a man-written book that's unexplainable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most Christians (not all) believe that the bible was written by God through man, that the words in it are and will always be the word of God. We look at it as ultimate truth. Yes this is a leap of great faith to believe in something that we have never seen or "audibly" heard. But I feel it every day and see it every hour in the things that he had done for me.

[slugshooter]

[ QUOTE ]

I used to wonder about that too, but the answer is there. We tend to picture Noah frantically running around collecting all these living creatures , but if you read carefully, God caused the animals to come to Noah. So whatever living creatures came were saved and whichever did not come, were not.


[/ QUOTE ]

So how did animals that don't live over in the middle east get over there, did they take a boat?

[buckee]

Well, the bible doesn't say this, but I think I'm pretty safe in assuming that since God caused the animals to come to Noah, then he was also quite capable of redistributing them throughout the world, when the ark was opened. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
I don't think it's too presumptuous to think that way. He caused them to come, why not cause them to go also.

[wtnhunt]

[ QUOTE ]
There are a lot of things in the bible that makes your head hurt when you think about it enough.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. As someone else pointed out somewhere in this thread or another, the question about incest has also come to my mind. There are a lot of questions and things I dont understand in the book. I do still have faith and I know that the original writings were most likely all factual, but however just dont think all the stories have remained as they were in the original form in the context it was intended.