Why does God....

[TreeStandBowHunter]

In since I didn't get the answer I wanted, someone please tell me...in english...why God permits people to suffer. I mean let's look at the 9/11 hijackings for example. I am sure someone in those peoples families prayed for them before they left home to fly. Why would God not answer their prayers for them? Why does God allow such tragic things happen to helpless people? If all you have to do is pray, then why aren't all prayers answered? Now I am just using 9/11 as an example. There are tons of other things.

People say that their prayers were answered now that the boy in Colorado was found. Ok, so why him and not all the other 1 million kids that go missing? I mean I could go on and on here. Why does God allow these things to happen...especially to helpless children. I mean how many christian families out there have tragic things happen to them. Well let me answer that for you, ALOT. I would like to here somebody answer this. I mean it's all about believing and praying right? I mean, I want to have a safe trip down to Pennsylvania next week with my family, but do you think praying about it is going to change anything from happening on the way down?

[johnf]

There is and has always been tragities. God say "The rain falls on the just and the unjust" to me this means this. Sometimes bad things happen to good people. In reference to 911. The bible clearly shows that when a nation turns it's back on God, He has allowed them to be attacked, invaded, taken over, and sent in slavery untill they turned back to God. I think as testiment in the media and everywhere else, our nation, has turned it's back on God and he has allowed us to be attacked. This is not a punishment for an indiviudal, but for an entire nation.

My daughter, on occation, has asked for things that she really wants or thinks that she really needs. As her father, I know more of what she really needs and what is good for her. Sometimes we ask for things that we don't need or things that God knows that we shouldn't have.

All prayers are answered. Sometimes God says no.

[buckee]

The other thing is that the closer we get to the return of our Lord Jesus, the more rope Satan is given in the world. Daniel and revelations talks about it quite a bit.
If you believe there is a God who created everything and you trust in his word, you'd better believe also that Satan has been given free reign here on earth until that day. That's one of the reasons for prayer right there, is asking God to protect us from that clown. The bible says (yeah, that's right..the bible says http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif) that "Satan goes about like a roaring lion, seeking for whom he can devour" Just take a good look around ...Satans rule is quite obvious in the world, but God is greater. That's why we need to put our hopes and trust in him.
Yes, bad things happen to Christians and non-Christians. God says he causes it to rain on the just and the unjust.
God has a plan, where it comes to dealing with Satan and all his rebellious angels. I wish I understood fully why things happen as they do sometimes, but I trust in God's plan.
It can get discouraging..no doubt about it, but that is why we are to build our house upon the rock (Jesus), instead of the shifting sand. When the storms come and the wind blows, at least I know I have my house built on the rock. (that's biblical to by the way http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif )
When I see kids getting molested and murdered on the news, all I can think is "Come Lord Jesus, Come"

[spyderpancake]

Good answers guys. As for your original question, God allows people to suffer for many reasons. One is so that we will grow stronger. Another is to get people's attention. Have you ever seen people who were more open to God than after 911? In my 18 years I haven't. And your qustion about prayer, God promises to answer I prayers, but that doesn't mean he will always give us what we want. That would be stupid. We would be asking for things that would NOT be good for us. Which we do a lot of times anyway. Have you ever read the book of Job in the Bible? It tells the story of a man who was morally upright, and God allowed Satan to afflict him. He lost his children, his possesions, and his health. His wife even turned her back on him. But he remained faithful, and God gave him double of everything that he had lost. Who knows why God let him go thru it. Maybe to show Satan that His followers were able to resist him? Or maybe to be a witness to his friends? God has a reason for everything, and while we can't always see it, everything is for our good and His glory.

[wtnhunt]

Because there are evil men on this earth and God as good as he is does let some prayers go unanswered for reasons only he knows.

[TreeStandBowHunter]

Well he obviously knows more than me because for what reason he would let a young child die such a horrible death is beyond me. Well not let it happen to the people doing the bad stuff out there http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[TreeWalker]

When bad things happen it also steers us in certain directions........we need to use the discouragement, that Satan heaps upon, and use it as a rudder to steer us in the right direction......

How many of us have found ourselves cruising through our day to day lives and have forgotten how we got there or where we are going ?? I know I have and still do.......God allows certain things to happen, to get our attention, but all for the greater good......it is not for us to comprehend or question his motives, but to trust in him. He longs for a personal relationship with each and everyone of us, as a father does his children....we are his children....but that won't happen if we are not actively seeking him.....

Sometimes a tragedy happens, and it brings people closer to God, doesn't it.......

And on the topic of prayer, unfortunately I know I've been one to shout out a hollow prayer now and again.....sure I have good intentions, but there has not been faith behind them.......some prayers go unanswered because we do not have our lives right with the Lord.......

Matthew 6:33 says: Seek first the kingdom of God, and his his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you........

[TreeWalker]

[ QUOTE ]
Well he obviously knows more than me because for what reason he would let a young child die such a horrible death is beyond me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus died an exceedingly horrible death......as unselfish an act as any could imagine.....

Our bodies are of the earth, but our spirits are of God....and I am quite sure that God was with that child as with many others through out history...young and old....the suffering here on earth pales in comparison to the rejoicing that is and will be done in heaven.......or to the torment of an eternity in he!!

[SaskMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes a tragedy happens, and it brings people closer to God, doesn't it.......

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't see how a tragedy such as losing a child or having a loved one taken from you in a horrible way, or having a loved one abused, raped etc.. would bring anyone rational closer to God, the one who is supposed to be watching out for us all. There is way too much evil in this world for me to buy any of it.

[TreeWalker]

Well, every born again Christian in here(or elsewhere) I am sure can vouch for it.......it took me hitting rock bottom, to wake me up........sometimes you gotta fall into a hole to see the light at the top.....

We can not let our selfish needs or wants rob of us of greater things......and the fact that you acknowledge that there is evil in the world, lends me to believe that you understand that there is also good.....

Why is it you non-beleivers find it so easy to lay blame for all bad occurrences on God, but hesitate to lay it at the feet of Satan.....the one who is responsible for all evil ??

[TreeWalker]

[ QUOTE ]
......would bring anyone rational closer to God, the one who is supposed to be watching out for us all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can we as parents prevent things from happening to our own children ?? sometimes yes......how 'bout if we don't know where they are ?? Odds decrease don't they........it's all about communication.....Just as people long for reuniting with long lost loved ones, so does God long for a relationship with his children on earth........and just as it is hard to protect our loved ones (within our means) when we don't know them or know where they are, so does God have a hard time protecting us if we don't know him or let him know we're here......and if we don't ask for additional help through sincere prayer when we hit some snags, how can he then recognise each of our dilemas and pour donw his blessings upon us ....he also gave us freedom...free will.....if we walk away from him and don't keep in touch, it is hard for God to keep tabs on us......but doesn't mean he cares less.....he loves us just the same...........and just as in any one of our lives, no matter how hard we try to protect ourselves and our loved ones, accidents and tragedies will occur.......just like, as hard as God tries to protect us with his grace and mercy, there is still the evil actions of Satan at work......and Satan will do everything in his power to tear us all apart.......threads like this, are evidence of that.....

[johnf]

[ QUOTE ]

I can't see how a tragedy such as losing a child or having a loved one taken from you in a horrible way, or having a loved one abused, raped etc.. would bring anyone rational closer to God, the one who is supposed to be watching out for us all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you ever seen the movie "A Time to Kill"?

Even though it's not real, every time is see it, at the end of the movie. I can't help but get all teary eyed and go in and hold my daughter, kiss her and pray for her safty and ask God to watch over her. Then I start praying for other things and thanking God and praisning him for his many blessings. The tragity that never even happend to that little girl on a movie causes me to be closer to God.

If that one little 2 minute segment can do that to me, how many others have gone through the same thing. How many people are closer to God because of 911? How many have given their lives to Christ because of the tragity there? How many people have come closer to God because of the guys who took over the plane that went down in Penn?

My guess would be a lot more than that died.


[ QUOTE ]
There is way too much evil in this world for me to buy any of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

The closer we get to the end the worse it's is going to be. Satan has more control over the world than he ever has, and tomarrow it's going to be worse. It is biblical, if you would like me to look it up I will.

[slugshooter]

[ QUOTE ]
Why is it you non-beleivers find it so easy to lay blame for all bad occurrences on God, but hesitate to lay it at the feet of Satan.....the one who is responsible for all evil ??

[/ QUOTE ]

Because God is the one who allows bad things to happen, even if satan is the culprit behind it all, God allows it to happen. Why? I don't know, and that is the purpose behind this whole thread that TSBH started. The pastor of the church I attended when I was a little kid said in a sermon one time that "God doesn't do bad things to people." Well, if he allows them to happen, is God considered complacent in these matters? Isn't He just as responsible as satan for the horrors that people encounter on a daily basis if he allows them to happen but does not intercede?

[TreeWalker]

There is more to this than you and I will ever comprehend....we were not meant to, or we would be all-knowing like God....so too, there will be no other God's before him.

His plan for us is bigger than the a simple "here and now".....if the tragedy to some, causes many to become reborn, than the better has been achieved.....

The problem is that the negative effects are always seen and remembered because we are merely human, and that's what sticks in our short term memory........as in 9/11, it was a horrific tragedy and I can not fathom the suffering that was endured on that scale......but legions of people came to know Christ because of it, and others remewed their faith.........and a renewed pride in the United States as citizens, sprung out of the rubble..........in the past couple decades there was a moral degredation......we are now seeing a moral rebirth.............

It is easy to only regonize the bad that happens in our lives....but it is merely a sliver in time compared to what the future holds.......and none of us can predict the future......only God knows what that holds...........but history does speak for itself, and I would venture to guess, that for every tragedy that happened through out history...regardless on what scale....there was rebuilding and rebirth.....more positives than negatives.....can you imagine where we'd be if there wasn't ??

[Tominator]

I simply don't know Mike. Why has my cancer been found so early, and it's always been operable? And yet, my brother's was found late, and eventually became inoperable? Why did he suffer for 6 years with that pain?

In the last few years, this is yet another thing I've thought about.

I've come up with 2 things; I guess we'll never know if it's true or not, but #1--we have a purpose here, it's your job to figure it out and do it to the best of your ability.

#2--when your time is up, it's up, and God knows when your mission is done.

[slugshooter]

[ QUOTE ]
as in 9/11, it was a horrific tragedy and I can not fathom the suffering that was endured on that scale......but legions of people came to know Christ because of it, and others renewed their faith.........

[/ QUOTE ]

I wonder how many have stayed in that faith and how many "came to Christ" in the heat of the moment because that was the "cool" thing to do after every tragedy like that. Remember back in the 80's, the 86 reasons why Christ will return in 1986, the guy had the exact date and everything, people ran into the churches like Christianity was the hottest thing on the block only to be let down, then the guy said he miscalculated and changed the date, you know what, noone payed attention, the guy sold a few million books and probably retired in the Bahamas, much like a Billy Graham Crusade, now I am not knocking Billy Graham here, I think he is a great man and one of the few real evangelists out there, but my last pastor, when I was involved in church here a few years back, told me that during the crusade thousands "came to Christ", but after the crusade was over he got to talking with the other pastors in town, not one pastor had one person come into the church that had been "saved" at the crusade. My point is this, just because "legions" of people supposedly came to Christ because of this tragedy, how many meant it and are living it. I guess it would also matter what denomination you adhere to also, some Baptists believe that you are "once saved, always saved" regardless of what you do after your "conversion". The Church of God, based in Cleveland, TN for example believes that salvation is a neverending quest, they like to quote the verse "I have placed your name in the book and I can remove it." I heard that one too many times to count.

[TreeStandBowHunter]

You know, I think Tominator had the best example...I think http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Anyway, I am a believer..I think anyway http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif. I just don't see why God allows this stuff to happen. If he is so more powerfull than Satan, then why would he allow Satan to do these horrible things. Tominator as an example. He does great things. He is a school teacher. Why would God allow someone like him to get cancer for.

So tell me, if our life is out of our hands, why pray? There is no way that all prayers go answered. If we pray everyday that our kids stay healthy and then all of a sudden one dies of cancer, what was the purpose of praying about it then if "God has a plan for us"....then worst of all, he makes little helpless children suffer. Why make an example of them for. Why use them to show that he is coming back soon. Seems weird to me http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[johnf]

[ QUOTE ]
Seems weird to me http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that the difference of the intelligence level of the creator and us is probibly greater than the difference between us and an ant hill. I don't claim to understand everything that he does. No one should.

[TreeWalker]

Why Pray ??...it's our only way to get in touch with god......why do bad things happen ??....because in the light there is still something to be thankful for..........Examples:

Your washing machine breaks......you still have clothes on your back....

A tree falls on your car.......you still have two good legs and your health to walk you there....

The lawn need mowing but the mower quit.....at least the grass is growing, must not be a drought....

And forgive me Chris....you are diagnosed with cancer.......you still have the love of a Gracious God and the love and support of family and friends.....

These are just examples.......they show that there is things to be thankful for, even though it may not seem like it.........you've got to open you eyes and your minds, and look past the negative and find the positive, and then give thanks..........

The man that can face his adversities, and give thanks for that which he has been blessed with, will serve testament to his brothers.......

Satan is all about discouragement......and if you have a ton of discouragement in your life, you know you are doing something right......cause he wants you to fail.......find the positives in your life and give thanks where it is do................positive attitude men, don't let Satan bring you down....

[TreeWalker]

How many meant it and are living it....why not ask them ?? Impossible task right......that's why your efforts are wasted arguing time and numbers.....even if only 100 were saved, and they in turn helped others to be saved and so on...the pyramid effect is actually quite staggering.......even if just 10 were saved..........you got to look past simple mathematics and try to absorb the big picture.......and since only God can truely know what the entire future has to hold, then who are we to question it....

Quote from Slugshooter....."The Church of God, based in Cleveland, TN for example believes that salvation is a neverending quest"

It is a never-ending quest........nobody said salvation would be easy.......since we are sinful people, we are then not without sin.....we are to work towards our salvation with all of our heart until that trumpet sounds.............there is no cruise control....no "OK I'm saved and now safe"........it's an uphill battle but one that can be won.......it is attainable, but you can't be lazy....you've got be willing to work..........and like I had said once before....we all know that the things worked hardest for are appreciated the most.........considering the possibilities fo what he!! may be like, I'm not willing to take the risk......the idea of a possible eternity in he!! or Heaven....hmmmmm, let me think ?!?!? Is it worth taking a chance......me thinks not........and what do you have to loose........a lot actually, when you think about it.........what if you are wrong ??!!....an eternity in he!!....not cool.......... What if I'm wrong about my belief in God, you ask ?? Then I have lost nothing........but still have achieved my goal............and since I do beleive in God the Father, my Faith will give me strength and carry me through.......God delivered me from a horrible past, and let me know what the future has to hold......I'll take my chances with God, he's the one constant I can count on....

[AaronS]

Here is one way to look at it. It may not completely answer TSBH's question, and may not make sense. You'll have to let me know. Let's look at the future and apply it to the question.

The way I understand it, scripture says that after the rapture there will be 7 years of tribulation when Satan will run rampant. After that 7 years Jesus will return to earth and defeat Satan, binding him for 1000 years during which Jesus will reign on earth. After the 1000 year reign, Satan will be let loose to run rampant for a short time before being bound again for eternity.

Why would God let Satan loose after the 1000 year reign? The explanation I've read is that the people born during this 1000 year reign will have never known trouble or suffering or any of the works of Satan. They run the chance of taking God for granted. God will let Satan run free for a short time to test the people of that time to see where their hearts lie.

Turn back the clock to today. I think God lets a lot of things happen today as a test to see where people's hearts lie. Is it fair? Most people don't think so. Then again, if God was absolutely fair, none of us would have a chance of getting into heaven in the first place because we are all sinners. It is only through his mercy and grace through Jesus that we even have a chance.

[Tominator]

[ QUOTE ]
Tominator as an example. He does great things. He is a school teacher. Why would God allow someone like him to get cancer for.

So tell me, if our life is out of our hands, why pray? There is no way that all prayers go answered. If we pray everyday that our kids stay healthy and then all of a sudden one dies of cancer, what was the purpose of praying about it then if "God has a plan for us"....then worst of all, he makes little helpless children suffer. Why make an example of them for. Why use them to show that he is coming back soon. Seems weird to me


[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's a fallacy, and a mistake to pray for only good things. Bad things happen in this world because it's imperfect. It's a preparation for eternal life.

[ QUOTE ]
Tominator as an example. He does great things. He is a school teacher.

[/ QUOTE ]

Believe it or not, cancer I think has made me a better person, and a better teacher.


I pray for grace, fortitude, and understanding more than anything now.

Whoo boy, this thread is getting me choked up. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[slugshooter]

[ QUOTE ]

The way I understand it, scripture says that after the rapture there will be 7 years of tribulation when Satan will run rampant. After that 7 years Jesus will return to earth and defeat Satan, binding him for 1000 years during which Jesus will reign on earth. After the 1000 year reign, Satan will be let loose to run rampant for a short time before being bound again for eternity.

Why would God let Satan loose after the 1000 year reign? The explanation I've read is that the people born during this 1000 year reign will have never known trouble or suffering or any of the works of Satan. They run the chance of taking God for granted. God will let Satan run free for a short time to test the people of that time to see where their hearts lie.


[/ QUOTE ]

How do we know we aren't in the middle of that 1000 years right now?

[TreeWalker]

http://www.redphage.com/smilies/rolleyes.gif

I'm pretty sure we'd know if Jesus was reigning here on earth........I'm thinking if anything we're more in the stage of "there will be wars and rumors of wars.." http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[AaronS]

[ QUOTE ]
How do we know we aren't in the middle of that 1000 years right now?

[/ QUOTE ]

1) Jesus hasn't returned to rapture his faithful.
2) Jesus has not bound Satan in h e l l. Evil is still rampant.

When these things happen, EVERYONE will know it....there will be no question. I would think the times we are living in more closely resemble the tribulation than anything.

[buckee]

[ QUOTE ]
How do we know we aren't in the middle of that 1000 years right now?

[/ QUOTE ]

Look around..does it look like satan is bound right now. Is Jesus riegning on earth, with all the governments under his authority ???
http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif I don't think so slugger, but, it isn't too far away according to the things happening in the world today.

[AaronS]

Clay you were faster than I. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[TreeWalker]

http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

TSBH....if you have a bible handy, check out Romans Chapter 8.....it will hopefully help a little more....in fact here is a link.....

ROMANS CHAPTER 8 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=8&version=76)

IN fact here is a link to a page where you can choose a version that suits you(English of course, LOL).....I prefer the New International Version(especially the study or readers version) or the New American Standard....they're more in laymans terms compared to the King James Version.....

THE BIBLE (http://bible.gospelcom.net/versions/)

[johnf]

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

TSBH....if you have a bible handy, check out Romans Chapter 8.....it will hopefully help a little more....in fact here is a link.....

ROMANS CHAPTER 8 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=8&version=31)

IN fact here is a link to a page where you can choose a version that suits you(English of course, LOL).....I prefer the New International Version or the New American Standard....they're more in laymans terms compared to the King James Version.....

THE BIBLE (http://bible.gospelcom.net/versions/)

[/ QUOTE ]

I have read the book of Romans several times. As a matter of fact it is the book that pushed me over the edge toward salvation.

I fail to see the reference in which you wanted me to read it again. It seems to me that it says exactly what I have been saying her.

Please explain. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
<font color="red">
Sorry I thought that was meant for me. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif It's a good scripture TSBH you should read it.

IT"S ALL ABOUT ME http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif </font>

[TreeWalker]

Don't worry john...was hoping you'd catch yourself.. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Just thought this might help our good Marine Friend out a bit.... and maybe a few others http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[TreeStandBowHunter]

[ QUOTE ]

TSBH....if you have a bible handy,

[/ QUOTE ]

I always have a bible ready. Matter of fact, that's what my wife bought me for christmas this past year http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif...I think she was trying to tell me something http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif I told her she better get me one that I understand so she bought two actually for me....One was a NIV Study bible and one was for kids http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif...I actually like the kids one better...more laid out for me http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I really wan't to understand all this. I ask my In-laws these same questions and pretty much get the same answer but I guess it just doesn't make sense to me thats all. I ask myself everyday why God allows things to happen to good people.

[TreeWalker]

Simply put...because he can.....some he will mold and some he will harden......he does these things to prepare us for his plan for us....

"Ours is not to question why, ours is but to do and die"

[buckee]

Be nice if we had all the answers wouldn't it, but then, we'd probably be so arrogant because of our knowledge, that we'd feel we didn't need our Father in Heaven at all.

[Tominator]

[ QUOTE ]
I really wan't to understand all this.

[/ QUOTE ]

None of us understand this, so you're in good company. If you say you understand it all, you're an idiot, and a liar.

We don't know, thus we seek. If you're done seeking, you're dead, not literally, just spiritually IMHO.

Keep seeking Mike. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[TreeWalker]

Amen Chris...Amen...

[TreeStandBowHunter]

Oh Mikeee is seeking...don't worry http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif I just don't understand some things that's all. Hopefully I am not held accountable too much for being confused on some issues for the time being http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[johnf]

I don't know if you have ever mentioned doing this Mike, but I think there is something worth trying.

When I was in college I dated a very sweet Christian girl. We used to have a lot of very heated debates about the bible and Christianity, and honestly, I usually either won, or had her so confused and upset that she usually gave up. One day she brought me a list of scriptures about salvation, about why, what,and how to be saved. At the time I didn't really think it was that big of a deal, but I prayed the sinners prayer, I admitted that I was a sinner, that Christ was the Son of God and then asked Him to come into my heart and forgive me of my sins.

I can honestly say that that moment was the central most important thing I have ever done. Things that never made any sence to me started to. I started reading the bible with much better understanding and could see how it pertained to my life.

I couldn't possibly say that I understand everything that God does or says, but it is much, much better.

I am Baptist and believe in the security of the believer (once saved always saved) but I think it's important that we say that prayer often, just to remind us of the great sacrifice that he made for us all.

I challange you Mike to pray that prayer tonight, not just with your mouth, but with your heart and soul and everything that makes you what you are, and see if it makes the difference for you that it made for me.

[Tominator]

[ QUOTE ]
I just don't understand some things that's all. Hopefully I am not held accountable too much for being confused on some issues for the time being

[/ QUOTE ]

I wish I had the guts to tell someone what I'm confused about and have doubted over the last 2 years.

I think He will forgive.

[slugshooter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How do we know we aren't in the middle of that 1000 years right now?

[/ QUOTE ]

Look around..does it look like satan is bound right now. Is Jesus riegning on earth, with all the governments under his authority ???
http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif I don't think so slugger, but, it isn't too far away according to the things happening in the world today.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was referring more to the devil having been loosed for his "short" season, as humans, we have a human outlook on things of God, a short season to God could be 10000 years, remember, "A thousand years is like a day, and a day is like a thousand years." To God that is.

[johnf]

There has been no recorded appocolips, the rapture was never recorded and the jews are by no means the most powerfull nation in the world. It's just not right in the time line.