Govt Eavesdropping [Archive]

horst

01-26-2006, 09:56 AM

So wheres it supposed to stop then?Their wiretaps seem to be a hot topic right now as to weather they were legal or not.

Theyre pouring through our internet records right now, at least from the search engines that turned the records over.

Listening in on cell phone calls would be the next logical step I suppose.Then home invasions without warrants would logicaly follow I suppose.Im only half joking about that.I guesse I dont need to be made to feel safe that badly.The odds of of the terrorist targeting me for an attack are astronomical.The odds of the government taking something outta context or getting something screwed up in thier computer and labeling me as a suspected terrorist are much greater IMO.Except the terrorists move on when theyre done, the government will hound you forever.Im not willing to give up any more rights for that .

okbowman

01-26-2006, 10:22 AM

There has to be some criteria for what they can use that they hear on these wiretaps! You could even make the argument that if they outlaw guns, you could be in trouble and be a target for this if they suspect you had guns in your home, you would then be a "terrorist".

That said, I support them listening to phone calls to or from anyone suspected to be in cahoots with Al Queda!

01-26-2006, 10:44 AM

I've got nothing to hide. If they want to hear about my 3d shoot or latest hunting escapade with my GA buddy, SO BE IT!

buckee

01-26-2006, 11:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I for one have nothing to hide, so let'em listen all they want.

[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly.
They aren't going to be looking for little comments made by citizens and calling them on it. GEESH, do you realize how much man-power, money, and time that would take. They are looking for the obvious stuff, not Joe citizen, making some snide comment about the government, etc.

Nut

01-26-2006, 11:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
So wheres it supposed to stop then?Their wiretaps seem to be a hot topic right now as to weather they were legal or not.

Theyre pouring through our internet records right now, at least from the search engines that turned the records over.

Listening in on cell phone calls would be the next logical step I suppose.Then home invasions without warrants would logicaly follow I suppose.Im only half joking about that.I guesse I dont need to be made to feel safe that badly.The odds of of the terrorist targeting me for an attack are astronomical.The odds of the government taking something outta context or getting something screwed up in thier computer and labeling me as a suspected terrorist are much greater IMO.Except the terrorists move on when theyre done, the government will hound you forever.Im not willing to give up any more rights for that .

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

Now what was that quote from Ben Franklin?

Nut

01-26-2006, 11:55 AM

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They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

[/ QUOTE ]

slugshooter

01-26-2006, 12:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So wheres it supposed to stop then?Their wiretaps seem to be a hot topic right now as to weather they were legal or not.

Theyre pouring through our internet records right now, at least from the search engines that turned the records over.

Listening in on cell phone calls would be the next logical step I suppose.Then home invasions without warrants would logicaly follow I suppose.Im only half joking about that.I guesse I dont need to be made to feel safe that badly.The odds of of the terrorist targeting me for an attack are astronomical.The odds of the government taking something outta context or getting something screwed up in thier computer and labeling me as a suspected terrorist are much greater IMO.Except the terrorists move on when theyre done, the government will hound you forever.Im not willing to give up any more rights for that .

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

Now what was that quote from Ben Franklin?

[/ QUOTE ]

"Those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve NEITHER!!!" (emphasis mine)

slugshooter

01-26-2006, 12:29 PM

I also have nothing to hide, but that is most certainly not the point. The constitution guarantees the right for citizens to be free from unreasonable search and seizure. I am currently taking a class called "Terrorism and the Homeland Security Response," now I have tons of reading and research to do for this class, lets say I have to research a specific WMD and write about it, technical stuff, I go on the internet and do all types of research, well, since the government wants to know who has been looking at those sites, I am now on a watch list because I have been researching how to make a WMD. The same goes for telephone conversations, who is to say that the wiretaps have only been used to monitor terrorists. There is too much leeway for misuse of the information they receive during the wiretaps. Whats the old saying "give em an inch and they'll take a foot?" Like I said, I have nothing to hide, but why should I be apprehensive about anything I say on the phone or type in e-mail because big brother is watching. That is not security, that is a police state.

AllArmyoutdoorsSD

01-26-2006, 12:33 PM

I am no expert, But I imagine that the Govt has specific criteria, or profile of certain targets that are being watched. I have a hard time believing that the entire country is being listened to. I know in the past presidents have made the call to take drastic measures in order to maintain control in their country. IMO wire tapping isn't something that I would stress out about, if you ask me it is just another political ploy to place the focus of the American people away from anything that might actualy make the President look good.

Gator

01-26-2006, 12:44 PM

So for all against the wire taps or eavesdropping, whatever you call it, IF, and I mean IF, 1 phone conversation could possibly prevent something along the lines of 9-11, you would still be against that practice? Like a couple of others have said, I am sure there is a "profile" of people that they will want to monitor, not just some Joe Citizen.

slugshooter

01-26-2006, 12:55 PM

The main problem is that the administration circumvented the law to utilize these wiretaps. As we all know, even the president is not above the law as proven with the Lewinsky and Watergate scandals. If there are specific targets then get the required authorization. Just because you are the president doesn't mean you should be able to order wiretaps on US citizens without sufficient cause. Besides, what would blanket wiretapping serve, it would create too much work for our government, who knows how long it would take to sort through it all.

Texan_Til_I_Die

01-26-2006, 12:57 PM

What seems to be missing from this discussion is the very pertinent fact that all of these wiretaps are on SUSPECTED terrorists or their supporters. These people have already done something to trigger suspicion, or they wouldn't be getting tapped to start with. And, to the best of my knowledge, in the vast majority of these cases at least one side of the conversation is originating from a foreign country. These are not just random taps from a government that's out trolling for information. Makes a big difference in my mind.

TreeStandBowHunter

01-26-2006, 01:20 PM

This is the problem. Your Dems are mostly againt it and the Republicans are mostly for it.

I think it's good that they do it. Obviously they are tapping certain people for a reason. And no, I don't think ALL "People" that live in "America" should have rights. So I guess if Mr. Akbar moves over here to plot the next attack, we can't tap his phone line or whatever because he is in America and should have rights? Slugo, come on man. This is how attacks happen. Don't worry Slugo, a Dem will win the next election and we will have our attacks AGAIN because the Dems were worried about everybody's freedom that lives here in America!

horst

01-26-2006, 01:32 PM

So your all are in favor of war to liberate the people of Iraq while at the same time you have no problem with the same government taking away your freedoms?We got guys dying over there so they can have a democratic government but cant even gaurantee the people in our country the same rights?Where the logic here guys?Everyone in heres constantly complaining about the antis and the liberals trying to take away theyre right to bear arms but youre willing to roll over and give up any of your other rights on the very, very, minimal chance a terrorist attack could be averted from it?Because thats what it boils down to, its just a crap shoot and theyd have to be listening to just the right phone at just the right time.

They have some criteria for this you say?Then explain why theyre trying to pull all the info they can get from every search engine on the internet to look for key words/phrases?Personally I dont think all the men and women whove died serving this country died so we could have wiretaps and random house searches like the Soviet Union.I also wasnt aware the Constitution was a put and take deal where you could decide which parts you liked and disregard the rest.Having nothing to hide isnt the point, or at least it shouldnt be.You know whats worse then terrorists, a government thats got to much power and isnt afraid to abuse it.We keep giving things up and thats basically what were creating.

johnf

01-26-2006, 01:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What seems to be missing from this discussion is the very pertinent fact that all of these wiretaps are on SUSPECTED terrorists or their supporters. These people have already done something to trigger suspicion, or they wouldn't be getting tapped to start with. And, to the best of my knowledge, in the vast majority of these cases at least one side of the conversation is originating from a foreign country. These are not just random taps from a government that's out trolling for information. Makes a big difference in my mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the key. Joe Bob Redneck (any of us) have nothing to worry about and will most likely never be adversly affected by it. While Amar Kleifglafa or whatever studying micro biology and spending a lot of alone time with his middle easter buddies probibly should be careful what he says.

slugshooter

01-26-2006, 02:30 PM

Lets not also forget that the government can also open your snail mail. There was a story about that a couple of weeks ago about an American who has a friend in the Philippines. His mail was opened because the Philippines is primarily a muslim country and there might have been something "bad" in there. The government is reaching here people, and Mike, it isn't a Democrat or Republican thing, if anything, this issue needs to be a non-partisan issue because all Americans civil liberties are at stake.

What I find interesting is that the conservatives will defend the presidents actions regarding eavesdropping, wiretapping, internet search records, etc. etc. etc. BECAUSE we are at "war", but when the issue is human rights for detainees held in our facilities under the American flag, well, we aren't really at war, the Geneva Conventions don't apply. We are at war but not really at war? There needs to be a little bit of consistency here. Either we live in a police state where our actions are scrutinized and we have to look over our shoulder and watch what we say and what we type and prisoners can be held without trial for "x" number of years with no oversight. Or we can live free from oppression, be safe in our homes and jobs from unreasonable search and seizure and illegal wiretaps and know that the people we hold in prison are being treated fairly and with just cause.

Maybe the government hasn't eavesdropped on me, and looked up what I type in a search engine, or opened my mail. But under the current guidelines, who is to say they will not in the future. The issue is whether or not I have anything to hide, the issue is that as an American citizen, I am supposed to be free from that type of search without probable cause. Sometimes I get the feeling that many on here think that our government is some all encompassing compassionate entity that has no flaws and is above reproach. Our government is dirty, regardless of political affiliation, and they will stop at nothing to get what they want.

slugshooter

01-26-2006, 02:33 PM

Here's a quote from my professor in my "Research Methods in Political Science" course I am in currently. His name is Dr. Frank Trapp, he is a veteran of the Marines, a conservative, and has been involved in numerous overseas jobs involving national security and international relations. "I am a big believer in the war on terror, but I am vehemently opposed to the government subpoeanaing internet search records."

Texan_Til_I_Die

01-26-2006, 02:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So your all are in favor of war to liberate the people of Iraq while at the same time you have no problem with the same government taking away your freedoms?

[/ QUOTE ]

I support the war in Iraq because I believe it helps in the overall War on Terror. The fact that it liberated several million people from a brutal dictator is just a bonus. And just which freedom(s) have I lost? I guess I'm no longer free to use the telephone to plot an attack against U.S. citizens, but somehow I don't think I'll miss that very much.

Again folks, this isn't your local police trying to catch you selling a dime bag to your buddy. It's the NSA (that's spies in plain English) trying to stop a terrorist attack on our nation.

[ QUOTE ]
They have some criteria for this you say?Then explain why theyre trying to pull all the info they can get from every search engine on the internet to look for key words/phrases?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because the bad guys are fond of using email and chat boards as a means of communication too. And, you should have NO expectation of privacy for anything you do on the Internet. If you do, you're totally deceiving yourself.

[ QUOTE ]
Personally I dont think all the men and women whove died serving this country died so we could have wiretaps and random house searches like the Soviet Union.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing random about it. Our intelligence services have very specific targets in mind and they're going after them.

[ QUOTE ]
I also wasnt aware the Constitution was a put and take deal where you could decide which parts you liked and disregard the rest.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not, (I'm being facetious here) the Supreme Court did that exact thing in 1972 with their decision in Roe vs. Wade? Seriously though, I think everything that's happening right now is clearly sanctioned under the War Powers Act and the Joint Resolution passed by Congress on September 14, 2001.

Andrea

01-26-2006, 03:23 PM

Eavesdrop all they want. I am all for it.
I thought they were doing it all along anyway.

I saw a report about this on the news. There's a gigantic computer somewhere that can listen for certain phrases and words.......it picks them up, traces the call, and then re-listens to the entire conversation. If it turns out to be a couple of good old boys from Kentucky re-hashing what they saw on the news that night...then nothing. If it turns out to be 2 Muslim extremists talking about their next terrorist attack..then they will move in on them.
Fine by me. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

slugshooter

01-26-2006, 03:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I saw a report about this on the news. There's a gigantic computer somewhere that can listen for certain phrases and words.......it picks them up, traces the call, and then re-listens to the entire conversation. If it turns out to be a couple of good old boys from Kentucky re-hashing what they saw on the news that night...then nothing. If it turns out to be 2 Muslim extremists talking about their next terrorist attack..then they will move in on them.
Fine by me. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

It's at the NSA HQ in Fort Meade, MD.

horst

01-26-2006, 03:48 PM

Last thing Ive got to say on the issue.If were giving up our rights to privacy because of the acts of a bunch of fanatics then we already lost, cuz thats exactly what they want us to do.If you honestly believe this is the answer, quit crying about em trying to take your guns, after all, its to make you safer.If its ok to take this right away, dont expect any of them to be safe.And unfourtanately I think some of you are letting politcal lines form your opinion on this, if it was the former Clinton administration trying to push something like this through a lotta you guys woulda been yelling the loudest.Seriously, im afraid im gonna have to take any future statements you guys make about the constitution, the right to bear arms, or any other rights with a grain of salt cuz I know under the right circumstances youd roll over and give em all up now.

slugshooter

01-26-2006, 03:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Last thing Ive got to say on the issue.If were giving up our rights to privacy because of the acts of a bunch of fanatics then we already lost, cuz thats exactly what they want us to do.If you honestly believe this is the answer, quit crying about em trying to take your guns, after all, its to make you safer.If its ok to take this right away, dont expect any of them to be safe.And unfourtanately I think some of you are letting politcal lines form your opinion on this, if it was the former Clinton administration trying to push something like this through a lotta you guys woulda been yelling the loudest.Seriously, im afraid im gonna have to take any future statements you guys make about the constitution, the right to bear arms, or any other rights with a grain of salt cuz I know under the right circumstances youd roll over and give em all up now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Couldn't have said it any better myself. Too many opinions are formed on this issue along partisan issues and I can't remember how many members on here said they would have no problem with gun registration if it were included in the USA PATRIOT Act, which isn't really patriotic at all.

Gator

01-26-2006, 04:05 PM

Really don't give a rat's butt what you think. Times are different, and the way I see it is things like this NEED to happen to ensure the saftey of THESE United States. Maybe if some of ya'll don't like it, maybe you outta think about leaving. MY feelings are NOT based on what party is in office. Now granted, I HATED Clinton, but here as of late, I have lost ALOT of faith in GW, BUT he is doing what I feel needs to be done in this instance. And if you think I'd roll over and give up MY guns, TRY ME!!

Texan_Til_I_Die

01-26-2006, 04:15 PM

Horst, you do make a valid point when you say that I would be more suspicious if these actions were (and by the way, THEY WERE, we just didn't know about it) being carried out by the Clinton Administration. That administration proved itself to be untrustworthy when it came to national defense and various other issues. So far, the Bush Administration has given me no reason to doubt their motives.

I also believe that this is an excellent tie in to the gun control debate. I am all for gun control, as long as it's directed toward the right people - in this case criminals. And I'm all for the government spying as long as its directed toward the right people - in this case the enemy.

jdickey

01-26-2006, 04:57 PM

Of course... when ever you use GOOGLE, or any search engine, all of your computer information can be captured thru their systems! But nobody squaks about that!

And, with several domestic and international banking laws in effect, money that was literally flowing to terorist has been seized. So, this "domestic spying" is nothing new from that aspect. Phone calls to and from known and suspected organizations should rightfully be monitored.

People need to quit reading the headlines and the sensationalism being preyed upon by the Dems, in particular. The Dems chastized when the intelligence was incorrect, and now they squak when bona fide attempts are being made to gather correct intelligence.

I guess they just wanna sit there and stew in their own mess like they were doing during the late 90's!

Plain and simple... if you're not doing anything wrong... you don't need to worry about it!

horst

01-26-2006, 05:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe if some of ya'll don't like it, maybe you outta think about leaving.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good argument Gator, good to see someone being rational http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif.

Texan, you bring up an interesting point and I dont mind debating with you as long as youll let me stay n the country http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
I am all for gun control, as long as it's directed toward the right people - in this case criminals.

[/ QUOTE ]

But look at the attempts at gun control.They never do any good, they affect law abiding citizens and do absolutley nothing to discourage the people they are aimed at.im sure you can agree with that.This is gonna do the exact same thing, have zero affect on terrorism and infringe on the rights of those who arent terrorists.

If I honestly thought our government could control itself, look only into suspected terrorists and not use illegal taps just because they could for other things Id say great, Go for it.But I dont, its just the begining.

just for the **** of it lets say as a "terrorist" measure they did outlaw gun ownership.Thats not really much of a stretch of the imagination is it? http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gifNow your guns are illegal, they can tap your phone, go through your mail, if they suspect you own them they can come into your home without a warrant.Since its a anti terror bill they dont just need to suspect your hiding guns and they can keep you as long as they want without charging you with anything.Seriously, it sounds like a bad dream doesnt it?Whats to stop it from happening if we start giving up these little rights?It sets a precendent they can use in the future to keep taking what they want in the name of National security and by then itll be to late to turn back, just like with gun control.Once that laws on the books its almost impossible to get it back off.

slugshooter

01-26-2006, 05:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Really don't give a rat's butt what you think. Times are different, and the way I see it is things like this NEED to happen to ensure the saftey of THESE United States. Maybe if some of ya'll don't like it, maybe you outta think about leaving. MY feelings are NOT based on what party is in office. Now granted, I HATED Clinton, but here as of late, I have lost ALOT of faith in GW, BUT he is doing what I feel needs to be done in this instance. And if you think I'd roll over and give up MY guns, TRY ME!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh the old "Love it leave it" argument. It's getting a little tired. There is noone on here that doesn't love America, some of us just love the freedoms that we have become accustomed to too much. I guess we should be admonished for that. Times are different, times were different during WW2, and during Vietnam, and during the "Cold War", it still doesn't give the government the right to circumvent the law and eavesdrop on anyone as they see fit. It gives the government too much leeway. Maybe it will start out as eavesdropping on suspected terrorists, but who is to say it will not stop there. This administration has already proven that they have placed surveillance on non-muslim American organizations that do not share the same opinions as the administration, because they have a dissenting opinion. Noone here has bashed America or has said they don't love America. Should I continue to love America after my faith in the government has been shattered? I will continue to love America, not because of its government, but because we are the greatest nation in the world and because we as Americans are entitled to certain "unalienable rights, that among these rights are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Gator, you may not want to give up your guns or have gun registration, but there are many on here that have said they would abide by a gun registration if it fell under the USA PATRIOT Act, which completely negates their whole stance of being against a gun registration. What freedoms are you willing to relinquish in this "War on Terror?" You don't mind the possibility of having your phone tapped, internet records scrutinized, or your personal mail being opened? Lets take it a little further, the government already knows you have guns, registration or not. Some states have to enter your drivers license number when you buy ammunition. Is it such a stretch to think that the government won't keep tabs on the amount and types of ammunition you buy and the types of guns you own. How many hunting licenses are sold every year, mostly by hunters who use a firearm. It all begins with the erosion of a few rights. Yes, we are living in different times, but do these different times erode the meaning of the constitution. When the 2nd Amendment was written and guaranteed "The right to bear arms..." the only firearms they had were single shot muskets that took 2 minutes to load and fire, but somehow that tranlates 200 years later that we should be able to own a fully automatic rifle that can fire 50 rounds in under a minute. The 1st Amendment guarantees the right to Freedom of Speech and Religion. Any speech and any religion is protected under the constitution, not just that which adheres to a specific set of beliefs. The constitution guarantees the right to unreasonable search and seizure, just like it guarantees the right to own a gun and practice whatever religion I choose. If the current administration felt that what they were doing was needed and justified, then they should have had no problem with getting the proper authorization. The government does NEED to protect these United States, but they also NEED to follow the laws that were instituted 200 years ago, either that, or just go into the National Archives and burn the one we have and write a new one.

stevebeilgard

01-26-2006, 11:01 PM

we are at way. it was declared on us 9/11. the wire taps are legal, as clintonista jamie gurelich (sp) pointed out defending clinton in 1993. no different here. we simply need to know what our enemy is doing. does anyone think it is just lucky that we have not been attacked again, or is some of this wiretapping working? i think the latter

slugshooter

01-26-2006, 11:07 PM

I think we are lucky we haven't been attacked again. Hurricane Katrina, if anything, exposed our weaknesses. 9/11 wasn't thrown together in a matter of months, it had been planned since 1998. In the words of one of my professors, criminal justice professor Dr. Darl Champion, "They aren't done with New York." It may not be on a scale of 9/11, but look how easily they pentrated London buses and subway systems with suicide bombers, the same thing can happen here. Anyone been on a train lately, I took a train home to Florida a couple years ago, guess how many security measures I passed through, none.

BowJoe

01-27-2006, 04:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
So your all are in favor of war to liberate the people of Iraq while at the same time you have no problem with the same government taking away your freedoms?We got guys dying over there so they can have a democratic government but cant even gaurantee the people in our country the same rights?Where the logic here guys?Everyone in heres constantly complaining about the antis and the liberals trying to take away theyre right to bear arms but youre willing to roll over and give up any of your other rights on the very, very, minimal chance a terrorist attack could be averted from it?Because thats what it boils down to, its just a crap shoot and theyd have to be listening to just the right phone at just the right time.

They have some criteria for this you say?Then explain why theyre trying to pull all the info they can get from every search engine on the internet to look for key words/phrases?Personally I dont think all the men and women whove died serving this country died so we could have wiretaps and random house searches like the Soviet Union.I also wasnt aware the Constitution was a put and take deal where you could decide which parts you liked and disregard the rest.Having nothing to hide isnt the point, or at least it shouldnt be.You know whats worse then terrorists, a government thats got to much power and isnt afraid to abuse it.We keep giving things up and thats basically what were creating.

[/ QUOTE ] What do you mean the very, very, minimal chance of a terrorist attack. Do you just ignore all but the crap dems are rolling out or do you just have selective memory. I don't need to mention 9-11 but what about the 1st time the world trade center was bombed. That all happened here in America not on some foreign land. Just because it doesn't happen every day doesn't make it any less possible. I can't believe some people would say that they wouldn't want intrusion even if it saves lives. I don't want my life monitored either but if it means that when my baby gets here in August he or she will be safe from Al towelhead then so be it. And the reason it was secret is because you don't tell the bad guys what you are doing when you are trying to stop them. DUH!

BowJoe

01-27-2006, 04:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think we are lucky we haven't been attacked again. Hurricane Katrina, if anything, exposed our weaknesses. 9/11 wasn't thrown together in a matter of months, it had been planned since 1998. In the words of one of my professors, criminal justice professor Dr. Darl Champion, "They aren't done with New York." It may not be on a scale of 9/11, but look how easily they pentrated London buses and subway systems with suicide bombers, the same thing can happen here. Anyone been on a train lately, I took a train home to Florida a couple years ago, guess how many security measures I passed through, none.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have any original thoughts of your own or do you just quote your professors everytime they breath? It took longer for you to try to justify the Marine professor's experience and political orientation than it did to say his silly little quote. I always thought we were being monitored anyway since the attack. Really I was surprised that so many people didn't know and were shocked. I think everyone did know but the dems wanted to make it a bigger deal by pretending it was news to them. That's one thing I noticed is that when the dems act shocked they make a big deal out of it and then their followers act as if it's an outrage. Just people finding more reasons to hate other people. Sit back and relax like Slick Willy. We spent 8 yrs doin it.

slugshooter

01-27-2006, 09:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think we are lucky we haven't been attacked again. Hurricane Katrina, if anything, exposed our weaknesses. 9/11 wasn't thrown together in a matter of months, it had been planned since 1998. In the words of one of my professors, criminal justice professor Dr. Darl Champion, "They aren't done with New York." It may not be on a scale of 9/11, but look how easily they pentrated London buses and subway systems with suicide bombers, the same thing can happen here. Anyone been on a train lately, I took a train home to Florida a couple years ago, guess how many security measures I passed through, none.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have any original thoughts of your own or do you just quote your professors everytime they breath? It took longer for you to try to justify the Marine professor's experience and political orientation than it did to say his silly little quote. I always thought we were being monitored anyway since the attack. Really I was surprised that so many people didn't know and were shocked. I think everyone did know but the dems wanted to make it a bigger deal by pretending it was news to them. That's one thing I noticed is that when the dems act shocked they make a big deal out of it and then their followers act as if it's an outrage. Just people finding more reasons to hate other people. Sit back and relax like Slick Willy. We spent 8 yrs doin it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have plenty of original thoughts of my own, I just thought I would see what the reaction would be to some quotes from some CONSERVATIVE professors who still believe in the US Constitution. Can you deny that Katrina exposed our unpreparedness 4 years after 9/11? I know, I know, these things take time, but how long? Who knows when we will get hit again, I hope we never do. But will we be prepared when it happens, or will all of the emergency funding that was supposed to go to emergency preparedness that has been squandered away in the middle east come back to haunt GW. If he wants to eavesdrop and do this or that, he needs to do it legally. This administation could have gone to this so called "secret" court and gotten the necessary authorization and noone would have been the wiser. Would that have been so difficult? I am tired of all the whining about how liberals want to take your rights away when every day this supposed "conservative" administration has been eroding your rights as a US Citizen for 5 years now. But hey, you still got your guns right? Sometimes I feel that most of my fellow Americans on here would be completely happy if they lost every constitutional right they are guranteed as long as they get to keep their guns.

horst

01-27-2006, 09:32 AM

You know, if your gonna upset that easily you should at least use what Ive written and not just what you got out of it.

[ QUOTE ]
What do you mean the very, very, minimal chance of a terrorist attack. Do you just ignore all but the crap dems are rolling out or do you just have selective memory

[/ QUOTE ]

.I said it was a very minimal chance that they would have the right phones tapped at the right time to avert another attack anyway.Heres the quote.

[ QUOTE ]
on the very, very, minimal chance a terrorist attack could be averted from it?Because thats what it boils down to, its just a crap shoot and theyd have to be listening to just the right phone at just the right time.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
And the reason it was secret is because you don't tell the bad guys what you are doing when you are trying to stop them. DUH!

[/ QUOTE ]

And you think they tell them thier monitering theyre calls when they have a warrant?You really shouldnt use the term DUH unless your argument has some grain of reality involved with it.Theyve been tapping phones, and doing it legally, with warrants, for years without the bad guys knowing it.Were not saying phone taps shouldnt be used, were just saying they should legally obtain them with a warrant and not just be able to slap a wiretap on everytime they have a gut feeling about someone.

[ QUOTE ]
I can't believe some people would say that they wouldn't want intrusion even if it saves lives.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I thought it would save lives and the government would have enough self control only to use it for that and it would end there I wouldnt have a problem with it.Unfourtanately the Government doesnt have a real great track record for self control.But they do have a pretty good track record for overstepping thier authority.

slugshooter

01-27-2006, 09:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]

If I thought it would save lives and the government would have enough self control only to use it for that and it would end there I wouldnt have a problem with it.Unfourtanately the Government doesnt have a real great track record for self control.But they do have a pretty good track record for overstepping thier authority.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately horst, thats what the both of us have been trying to say, but noone seems to see it that way. They trust our government, it's nice to see such blind faith in our government after all these years. I guess they haven't worried about it because it hasn't inconvenienced them yet, when it does, I can't wait to read the rant on here.

TreeStandBowHunter

01-27-2006, 02:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I can't wait to read the rant on here.

[/ QUOTE ]

You do it to yourself Slugo http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

jdickey

01-27-2006, 11:52 PM

I'm just curious ... in the 40 some odd years since I've been out of college (yeah, that's right ... I was a college student during the 60's... when all this government distrust was brought to a head).... just how have your SPECIFIC rights been affected by today's governmental actions... both State and Federal.

For me.... it's been the elimination of the POLL TAX.... and GUN REGISTRATION. When I first began to vote in Texas, we had to pay a tax in order to do so! Incredible isn't it! And because of Gun Registration, I was able to recover two guns that were stolen from my house several years ago... so I have no complaint there!

But....what I have seen is the considerable LIBERALIZATION of many areas of the Constitution in order to fit the needs of the MINORITY in this country. Such as the ability to abort an unborn fetus, have a group pose naked in public ... for its artistic value. The list goes on...!

Again... I'm just curious as to how you think your Contitutional rights have SPECIFICALLY been affected. Not what you read and hear in the media.... but how has your life been affected?

stevebeilgard

01-28-2006, 11:48 PM

sluggo, you also mentioned that your professor said new york will be hit again, but probably not as bad. fact is, i believe they will nuke it one of these years. just as soon as they are able to. 9/11 was a cake walk compared to what they will do next.

slugshooter

01-29-2006, 06:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
sluggo, you also mentioned that your professor said new york will be hit again, but probably not as bad. fact is, i believe they will nuke it one of these years. just as soon as they are able to. 9/11 was a cake walk compared to what they will do next.

[/ QUOTE ]

He didn't say it wouldn't be as bad, just that NYC will get hit again. As far as a nuke, I sure hope not, but it's not such a stretch of the imagination is it. My biggest concern since 9/11 and NYC is concerned is the ports. When I was driving a truck I used to drive past NYC a lot on the Jersey Pike and around that area. There is a container yard, basically in Newark with THOUSANDS, probably 10's of thousands of containers, stacked as high as some building in NYC, who knows whats in there or what could potentially be in there, and just searching them would be next to impossible.

slugshooter

01-29-2006, 07:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But....what I have seen is the considerable LIBERALIZATION of many areas of the Constitution in order to fit the needs of the MINORITY in this country. Such as the ability to abort an unborn fetus, have a group pose naked in public ... for its artistic value. The list goes on...!

Again... I'm just curious as to how you think your Contitutional rights have SPECIFICALLY been affected. Not what you read and hear in the media.... but how has your life been affected?

[/ QUOTE ]

As far as the constitution is concerned, it is set up to defend the minority from the majority trying to impose their will on them.

As far as how has my or anyone else's specific rights have been violated by the USA PATRIOT Act or government eavesdropping without a proper warrant, well, under the circumstances, we wouldn't know if our rights to privacy have been violated because we don't have to be aware of a search of our homes, businesses or internet habits. And that is the problem.

While I was at work today I was thinking of this subject and the subject of national gun registration. Now, most everyone on here is an opponent of a national gun registration because of the potentially off chance that our government repeals the 2nd Amendment and we have to turn in our guns. Myself and a couple others on here are opposed to this whole eavesdropping thing because it violates our right to unreasonable search and seizure and the fact that the authorities must have a warrant to conduct such searches is being overlooked. Now, the chances of any of us on here having our phones tapped and internet search records scrutinized are remote at best, but the potential is there also, albeit remote. These 2 issues are different, but related. They both have an outside chance of happening, but it is the fact that it could happen that causes such vehement opposition. Some of us just happen to have a different soapbox to jump on.

jdickey

01-29-2006, 07:56 PM

You've overlooked the question in the first paragraph.... "....just how have your SPECIFIC rights been affected by today's governmental actions... both State and Federal."

If the Patriot Act was as direly un-Constitutional as you have been led to believe... wouldn't there have been a major movement by, say the ACLU, to have had a lawsuit in place by now, challenging the Constitutionality of that Act?

If the government "eavesdropping" or Domestic Spying as the media terms it, was also violating the Constitution, as you have been led to believe.. wouldn't the same hold true?

Consider these three facts.....
FACT is.... each of the three major credit bureaus retains and maintains more personal information in each of their respective files and on more people in this country than the U.S. Government.

Fact...have you ever used GOOGLE as a search engine on the internet? What they have gathered from your personal computer would scare your socks off. Along with that, any person that "clicks" on to a website, can be tracked instantaneously thru their computer ISP address.

Finally, one more FACT... your personal cell phone number can open a Pandora's box to any number of companies to invade your privacy.

I've brought these three areas to your attention, because these are more a part of your own personal, daily life, and yet, with just a minimal bit of information, there are individuals and private companies out there who can wreck your entire life, almost immediately.

So between these individuals, private companies, or the U.S. Government, your privacy is not as secure as you have been led to believe. Your far ranging hypothesis - the repeal of the 2nd Amendment , should be much more far-ranging so as to include the repeal of the entire Constitution. Of course, if that were to happen.... there would not be a REPUBLIC... for which it stands!

VermontHunter

01-29-2006, 08:19 PM

LOL.... I find this one halarious..... http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

As for the POLL TAX I wish they would bring that one back into practice..... http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

And if you folks think for one minute that our government hasn't been using these methods of survailence all along for all of these years... You'd better open your eye's,, becuase BIG BROTHER| has and will continue to be out there watching.... http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

If you you aren't a criminal, why should you really care ??,, I surely don't.. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I just can't see how someone wouldn't give up a few simple freedoms or conviences to keep your family and loved ones safe....... http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

INHunterman

01-29-2006, 08:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I just can't see how someone wouldn't give up a few simple freedoms or conviences to keep your family and loved ones safe....... http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly! Life trumps liberty every time.

oldksnarc

01-29-2006, 09:02 PM

If some lonely federal agent in some dank basement in Washington wants to intercept my mail, or listen to my phone calls, he's more than welcome. I believe that if it's that slow for whatever agency he represents, then the country, and the world, is in pretty good shape. If I'm the big interest to these folks, then the Osama Bin Ladins, the Timothy McVeighs, and the Mohammad Farrah Aideeds in the world have been rounded up or scared into dark and dank holes in the ground, or otherwise (and this is my favorite option) "liquidated."

This entire controversy is a prime example of people over estimating their own importance to the rest of the world. This country's mob mentality of "If the government is tapping phones, then they've probably tapped mine!!" is the very definition of egocentric. What makes you so very important that the NSA, the FBI, DIA, Secret Service, and who know who else has you on their Top Ten Hits list? The sad fact, John Q., is that no one in authority really gives a **** who you talk to, or what you're looking at on the internet. Unless you're the newest member of the Hammas Fruit of the Month Club, or you're email address is SleeperCell@msn.com, you're delusional at best if you believe the National Intelligence Community has even a passing interest in your pathetic little excuse of a life.

So go back to the aforementioned pathetic little excuse of a life, but sleep better, Mr. Nobody, in knowing that no one, you can be sure, is listening to your phone calls, or screening your e-mail. It might be true that nice guys finish last, but nobodys and losers have more privacy than they can possibly comprehend. It may just be that being the average nobody in the eyes of the law enforcement and intelligence communities is a tremendous blessing, so quit griping about your privacy rights. No one is infringing on anything other than your ego, and none of us want to hear it.

horst

01-29-2006, 10:01 PM

Ok heres a few other things that shouldnt be cried about anymore.

Any attempt at gun control or registration is now acceptable.Your not owning a gun could save a life down the road.Add up all the guns we own and theres a possibilty of a lotta lives being saved.

Register all your firearms now.you have nothing to hide right?Then you shouldnt mind a bunch of paperwork with the exact amount of guns and possibly the exact number of rounds of ammo you have in your home.

And your right to free speech.The government should be allowed to censor that at any time it pleases.After all, in your "pathetic little excuse for a life" you have no businuess questioning anything they do right?All of you unimportant people should quit making waves while the government goes about its businuess unchecked.

Your freedom of religion.Who needs it, its another meaningless right.Your religous preference means very little to a lot of people and they shouldnt have to put up with it.Bad enough theyre taking it outta the courthouses and schools, but I think all those crosses decorating the churches and little religous stores in the strip malls should be closed as well before they offend the minority.

Theres more, I could go on, but you guys just pick which ones of these youd like to see fall first.After all if it doesnt directly affect you it shouldnt matter should it?Theres a large % of Americans who could give a crap if you ever own a gun again, who have absolutely no interest in your religous preference, and have even less interest in your opinion.Aww, most of you dont take these other rights seriously anyway do you?Like I said, if this ones not important dont cry about the rest of em being violated and expect to be taken seriously cuz its a joke to try doint this from both ends.

VermontHunter

01-29-2006, 10:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Register all your firearms now.you have nothing to hide right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your firearm in the US is already registered when you purchase it..... and if it isn't you illegally purchased it.... http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]
And your right to free speech.The government should be allowed to censor that at any time it pleases.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's already censored in schools and government buildings.... So there's nothing NEW there...

[ QUOTE ]
Your freedom of religion.Who needs it, its another meaningless right.

[/ QUOTE ]

This also is censored in schools and government buildings.... Heaven forbid your kid celebrate Christmas in a classroom were there is a Jahova Witnees child,, that parent will go through the roof and start suing everybody in sight... http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

So I say again what's so new in life that everyone is is in a big uproar about ?? If the government wants to collect information on a certian individual or organization ( which they have been doing for centuries by the way ) why should we care... If you aren't paticapating in illeagal activities you have nothing to worry about.... http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Sorry Horst I was just using some of your statements as examples..... http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

To me the gathering of information, is way different than sensorship,,, we as intellagent peolple can tell the difference between right and wrong, and have the power in our means to make sure the right thing is done... http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

slugshooter

01-30-2006, 09:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You've overlooked the question in the first paragraph.... "....just how have your SPECIFIC rights been affected by today's governmental actions... both State and Federal."

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said any of my SPECIFIC rights have been violated. Usually, the best thing to do is to fight it before it happens correct? Because once it happens there really isn't anything you can do about it. You are opposed to a national gun registration are you not? What is better, to fight it now to prevent it from happening, or to fight it after the possibility that it does happen and you have complied with the law?
[ QUOTE ]

If the Patriot Act was as direly un-Constitutional as you have been led to believe... wouldn't there have been a major movement by, say the ACLU, to have had a lawsuit in place by now, challenging the Constitutionality of that Act?

[/ QUOTE ] The ACLU has filed a lawsuit, many other municipalities have passed ordinances prohibiting local officials from complying with some sections of the Patriot Act even though it would be a federal offense to do so.

[ QUOTE ]
If the government "eavesdropping" or Domestic Spying as the media terms it, was also violating the Constitution, as you have been led to believe.. wouldn't the same hold true?

[/ QUOTE ]

Amendment 4- "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Government eavesdropping without a warrant is unconstitutional.
[ QUOTE ]

Consider these three facts.....
FACT is.... each of the three major credit bureaus retains and maintains more personal information in each of their respective files and on more people in this country than the U.S. Government.

[/ QUOTE ]

They only have information that you yourself provide when making a credit application.
[ QUOTE ]

Fact...have you ever used GOOGLE as a search engine on the internet? What they have gathered from your personal computer would scare your socks off. Along with that, any person that "clicks" on to a website, can be tracked instantaneously thru their computer ISP address.

[/ QUOTE ]

That doesn't mean they have to turn the info over to the government without a warrant.

slugshooter

01-30-2006, 09:36 AM

horst

01-30-2006, 10:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Register all your firearms now.you have nothing to hide right?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Your firearm in the US is already registered when you purchase it..... and if it isn't you illegally purchased it....

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And your right to free speech.The government should be allowed to censor that at any time it pleases.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's already censored in schools and government buildings.... So there's nothing NEW there...

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Your freedom of religion.Who needs it, its another meaningless right.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This also is censored in schools and government buildings.... Heaven forbid your kid celebrate Christmas in a classroom were there is a Jahova Witnees child,, that parent will go through the roof and start suing everybody in sight...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, and the same guys who arent worried about the right to privacy are the ones that holler the most when these other right get violated.Thats my point.

Apparently theyve also affected your rights more then you were willing to admitt to in your first posts as well or you wouldnt have all these little observations to make.

And finally, if your willing to sit back, watch these things happen, and not complain about it, you werent the one I was talking to anyway.Its the ones that are complaining about certain rights being violated while theyre willing to overlook other ones that I was addressing.

[ QUOTE ]
To me the gathering of information, is way different than sensorship

[/ QUOTE ]

And to me its a package deal, we should expect it all or none of it, and I dont think thats what our founding fathers had in mind http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

oldksnarc

01-30-2006, 10:10 AM

It's a war. I think the standards are different in a time of war. The complaints I hear against all this and the war are the same left-wing arguements heard during WWII and which kept us out of it longer than we should have been. Maybe more lives would have been saved had we not been held back then - same as now.

Texan_Til_I_Die

01-30-2006, 12:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
texan til i die , you seem to say that government evesdroping is fine with you; well you also said this
in a different thread ; "In other words, I see this as just another example of government intrusion into an area where they should have no say what so ever."

so where do you really stand when it comes to government intrusion into our lives?

[/ QUOTE ]

The other thread was referencing a proposed law that would mandate exactly how much a private company will spend on employee healthcare and other benefits. I certainly DO NOT think that's an area where there should be government involvement.
In this thread, we're talking about national security/defense. And that is (or should be) the NUMBER ONE priority of government.

Apples and oranges my friend. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

slugshooter

01-30-2006, 12:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In this thread, we're talking about national security/defense. And that is (or should be) the NUMBER ONE priority of government.

[/ QUOTE ]

But does that mean that the government should be able to circumvent the Bill of Rights that is held so sacred in this forum when discussing the 2nd Amendment?

Texan_Til_I_Die

01-30-2006, 12:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But does that mean that the government should be able to circumvent the Bill of Rights that is held so sacred in this forum when discussing the 2nd Amendment?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe the government is circumventing anything. To quote myself from an earlier post in this thread... [ QUOTE ]
I think everything that's happening right now is clearly sanctioned under the War Powers Act and the Joint Resolution passed by Congress on September 14, 2001.

[/ QUOTE ]

VermontHunter

01-30-2006, 01:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Apparently theyve also affected your rights more then you were willing to admitt to in your first posts as well or you wouldnt have all these little observations to make.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually horst, I don't see where any of my civil rights have been violated,,, and my observations were based on what others seem to find offensive.. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

It all boils down to people thinking that the government is out to get them with all of this information gathering..... http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

I ask you all, when was the last time any government official came knocking on your door ?? I bet it was most likely never, RIGHT ??

So why all of the concern all of a sudden ?? Believe it or not the government has been collecting so called information way before you and I were even thought of.... it's what they do,,, http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

And horst I don't think our founding fathers had to worry about terroists in their time,, our world today is a evolving enitiy,, and it's not what I would call the safest place to live this day and age... http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif,, it's pretty sad when we have to look over our shoulders expecting the next bomb to go off..... http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

AllArmyoutdoorsSD

01-30-2006, 01:11 PM

I tried to make this point the other day but for some reason my post dissapeared.....

Abe Lincoln evicted an Ohio politician who went against Lincons views 0n the Civil War..

WW2 FDR had all soldiers mail opened, and all Japanese and their families put into concentration camps...

JFK wire tapped Martin Luther King Jr. without court approval.

At this very moment American Troops are fighting and dying in a far off country, so that innocent Americans don't have to here, The US. Govt. is doing it's best to assist them in that mission. So tell me why are crying about evesdropping on people with ties to terroist cells? Every time a Soldier dies, i have lost a family member, a family member that CHOSE to make sacrifices that will bennefit a country of whiners and naysayers that don't have a clue about what it means to 4,000 miles away from their spouses and kids, with the knowledge that you might not ever get to see them again.

oldksnarc

01-30-2006, 09:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In this thread, we're talking about national security/defense. And that is (or should be) the NUMBER ONE priority of government.

[/ QUOTE ]

But does that mean that the government should be able to circumvent the Bill of Rights that is held so sacred in this forum when discussing the 2nd Amendment?

[/ QUOTE ]

All of a sudden the government is circumventing our rights? The FISA Act which the President is using to monitor terrorist activities is the same act that was enacted under Carter's administration in 1978 and that every President has used since then. But, President Bush uses the act to safeguard us and all of a sudden it's wrong.

You on the left can't say it's wrong today when it wasn't wrong yesterday. The problem is President Bush isn't an "enabler."