Partial birth abortion law

[Andrea]

Seems the Supreme Court will now review the ban on partial birth abortion.

With the 2 newly appointed Republican justices I have a feeling that this method of abortion will be ruled unconstitutional and put into law.

I disagree with abortion..... ESPECIALLY this method. It is barbaric and totally uncalled for. It it NEVER necessary. EVER. Even to protect the mother's health.

story (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,185531,00.html)

[johnf]

I've told this story on here befor so I'll give you the short version.

On the day that my daughter was born in 1997 she was 8 weeks premature. My wife was diagnosed with eclampsia, accute toximia. The placinta ruptured and my wife was hemoraging badly. This is the argument for the partial birth abortion.

When doing this method, labor is induced in the mother, which could take 3-5 hours. Then the baby is then delivered breach and ........then the bad stuff happens. I'm not going to describe it in the enterest of good tast. This entire proceedure can take up to 7 hours while the mother is still hemoriging.

When my wife hemmoriged, the doctors said the fastest way to save my wifes life (she was bleeding to death) was to take the baby "C" section.

The hemorage began at 9:35 AM, and my daughter was born at 10:01 AM perfectly healthy, but small. So my wife lost blood for 26 minutes instead of the 5-8hours that a mother in a partial birth abortion would have.

Up untill the time of her birth she could legally have been aborted.

My wife was a textbook case that the abortion rights advocites use. They are wrong. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Partial birth abortion has no real medical use and is murder, pure and simple.

[hutchies]

I am more than disgusted at Partial Birth Abortion. It is wrong and will forever be wrong. End of story.

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

John, I couldn't agree with you more. Partial birth abortion (and really abortion in general) is abhorrant, but I don't think that's what the Supreme Court will be looking at. At least I hope not. What I want them to look at is the law that is written and the U.S. Constitution. And that is all they should be considering. Not whether some practice, in this case partial birth abortion, is something incredibly distasteful or even whether it's something that has support from a majority of U.S. citizens. Just look at the law and the Constitution and determine if it's legal.

After all, it was a previous Supreme Court ignoring the Constitution that gave us abortion on demand in the first place.

[johnf]

I remember something in the preable of the constitution about everyone haveing the right to "Life Liberty and the persuit of happiness". I would think that sence "life" is first then it would take precidence over the other two when in conflict.

[okbowman]

What makes me sick are those who want to do this(Partial Birth Abortion) and call this a civilized nation. It is totally barbaric, its like they want to go back to the Dark Ages!

[EKYhunter]

All of you guys are right. It's murder pure and simple as is ALL abortion. I am a registered Democrat and it makes me SICK that many in my party support this ungodly garbage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[johnf]

I've heard stories of the babies trying to squirm thier way out of the "Doctor's" grasp during the "proceedure".

I don't see how they could live with themselves.

[johnf]

[ QUOTE ]
All of you guys are right. It's murder pure and simple as is ALL abortion. I am a registered Democrat and it makes me SICK that many in my party support this ungodly garbage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

You know there was a time when the Democratic party were the "Good Christian" peopel. The problem is that much of the older generation don't see the party for what it has become.

[EKYhunter]

I see it for what's it's becoming and I'm 34. This abortion crap is sickening. God knew us before he formed us in the womb. I just don't get how people can support killing babys. I've got a six year old and a two month old. I just can't see supporting this trash!!!!!

[Mathews XT Man]

All abotions are wrong in my veiw, if they are induced for any other reason other than saving the mothers life. end of story,.

[INHunterman]

[ QUOTE ]
All of you guys are right. It's murder pure and simple as is ALL abortion. I am a registered Democrat and it makes me SICK that many in my party support this ungodly garbage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd change parties.

[EKYhunter]

Not to get off the main topic here (Abortion) but I've thought about switching but you know in the local politics here where I live no democrats support any type of abortion. Sometimes I feel like the Democratic party has been hijacked by the likes of Kennedy, Feinstein, and Hillary. The Dems that I know don't support abortion, gay rights, gun control, etc. I think it's a vocal minority that seems to set the agenda or platform.

I do not support the president or his policies such as tax cuts for the rich, cutting things like student loans, medicare benefits, cutting monies that go to grants for things like local law enforcement, the war, letting UAE run our ports, etc... So I guess what I'm saying is I don't believe in many things that the Republicans believe on a national level. Guess I'm caught in between!

[unioncountyslayer]

[ QUOTE ]
Not to get off the main topic here (Abortion) but I've thought about switching but you know in the local politics here where I live no democrats support any type of abortion. Sometimes I feel like the Democratic party has been hijacked by the likes of Kennedy, Feinstein, and Hillary. The Dems that I know don't support abortion, gay rights, gun control, etc. I think it's a vocal minority that seems to set the agenda or platform.

I do not support the president or his policies such as tax cuts for the rich, cutting things like student loans, medicare benefits, cutting monies that go to grants for things like local law enforcement, the war, letting UAE run our ports, etc... So I guess what I'm saying is I don't believe in many things that the Republicans believe on a national level. Guess I'm caught in between!

[/ QUOTE ]
Only the Presidents laws and beliefs are not inhumane and cruel. Just a thought, but you may want to become a Elephant. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Exturkinator]

This "to save a mothers life" argument is hype - it's used by pro-choice advocates as a touchy-feely emotional, seemingly non-debatable, justification for abortion. It is hype - the number of mothers who have "life-saving" abortion is essentially non-existent. I predict that not a single person on this forum personally knows a mother whose life was saved by an abortion....

[johnf]

[ QUOTE ]
Not to get off the main topic here (Abortion) but I've thought about switching but you know in the local politics here where I live no democrats support any type of abortion. Sometimes I feel like the Democratic party has been hijacked by the likes of Kennedy, Feinstein, and Hillary.

[/ QUOTE ]

and Michael More, Rosanne Bar, Barbra Streisand......... and a complete cast of Godless Hollywood.

[johnf]

[ QUOTE ]

I predict that not a single person on this forum personally knows a mother whose life was saved by an abortion....

[/ QUOTE ]

See my first post for reply.

I was watching fox news last night and they claimed that the vast majority of the medical field agrees that this type abortion is not the way to save anyones life. It is simply "a late term abortion option"

[slugshooter]

I think partial birth abortion is abhorrent and don't necessarily agree with abortion in general. It will be interesting to see how this new "conservative" court will decide certain cases. I read the other day that they ruled that a New Mexico church can continue using an illegal hallucinogenic drug in their services because it is used for religious purposes.

[wtnhunt]

I do not agree with abortion as a method of birth control period. I am very against the idea of murdering an unborn child.

The only situations IMO that may constitute a need for abortion are those situations where rape victims have become pregnant, and situations where it is ruled by physicians that the babies life and or the mothers life would be terminated if the baby was not aborted. In other words the only abortions that should take place are for victims of rape, and those should take place very early on. For those mothers who would ultimately die if the baby was not taken, it may be used a last resort.

[VtBowhunter]

Here's one argument that nobody will ever win and folks with a holier then thou attitude are the ones that never let it go. I'm so tired of the argument. It's all up to the mother and that's final. You don't like it? TOUGH. You have a lifetime to get over it.

[TreeStandBowHunter]

Well I certainly ain't no "Holier then thou attitude" kind of person and I think it's wrong. We have a lifetime to get over it but it's a shame that the unborn child being murdered doesn't have that amount of time to get over it. I think they ought to make it nation wide that it's illegal and the people that don't like it, well that's just "tough" for them. Just my 02. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[buckee]

[ QUOTE ]
It's all up to the mother and that's final. You don't like it? TOUGH. You have a lifetime to get over it.

[/ QUOTE ]
LMBO...no, I don't think that's final. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Ever since the fetus, inside a womans body, was redefined as "the womans body", instead of "an independant individual inside her body", it will never be "final".
And I don't have to get over it. The ol' adage "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" is for apes, not people. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
"Holier then thou attitude"

[/ QUOTE ]
It has little to do with a "Holier then thou attitude" and more to do with common sense, and of course that dirty little word called "LOVE".

[VtBowhunter]

Since they've determined a fetus to not be a living being until after the first trimester, there's no argument here.......this issue deals with the first trimester so it's not murder and therefor no lifetime is granted to the fetus.

I just don't see how anyone can sit in judgement over others the way people do over this issue. Kind of hypocritical don't ya think?

[buckee]

Not hypocritical at all http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
[ QUOTE ]
Since they've determined a fetus to not be a living being until after the first trimester, there's no argument here

[/ QUOTE ]
Who's "they", because I don't agree with "they"

[VtBowhunter]

The courts year ago.

[VtBowhunter]

How can you not see anything hypocritical about passing judgement on another person or people, especiallyt since many of you are fond of quoting the bible here, and I believe on God has the right to pass judgement.......you can't have folks quote the bible when they see fit, and then go directly against it when they feel otherwise........that's hypocritical.

[buckee]

[ QUOTE ]
How can you not see anything hypocritical about passing judgement on another person or people, especiallyt since many of you are fond of quoting the bible here, and I believe on God has the right to pass judgement.......you can't have folks quote the bible when they see fit, and then go directly against it when they feel otherwise........that's hypocritical.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not hypocritical at all, since we as Christians are called to judge all things, whether they be good or bad.
There is nothing hypocritical about judging things, acts, laws, etc.
In order to live our lives in defense of the truth, we must be able and willing to judge the morality of acts.
But the judgment of individuals must always be left to God. He alone knows the hearts and minds of us all. He alone knows how to judge how culpable we are for any of our actions.

The old saying that we should "hate the sin, but love the sinner" is to remind us that we must be compassionate and understanding. Indeed, out of humility and generosity, we should always assume, and pray, that the sins of others are moderated or tempered by some sort of ignorance or lack of freedom which will lessen their culpability in the eyes of God.

[VtBowhunter]

Excellent rebutle.......you should be a lawyer, lol.

[johnf]

[ QUOTE ]
and I believe on God has the right to pass judgement.......you can't have folks quote the bible when they see fit, and then go directly against it when they feel otherwise........that's hypocritical.

[/ QUOTE ]

More specifically the bible says that we should use the word of God to judge, not our own feelings. Too many people take that out of context saying that we don't have the right to judge. In fact through the Word of God we have the responsibility to judge.

[wtnhunt]

[ QUOTE ]
Not hypocritical at all http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
[ QUOTE ]
Since they've determined a fetus to not be a living being until after the first trimester, there's no argument here

[/ QUOTE ]
Who's "they", because I don't agree with "they"

[/ QUOTE ]

I certainly dont agree with they either. The courts, judges, whoever having the idea or attitude that in the first trimester an unborn baby is not living is abolutely crazy. Dont know where judges or lawmakers have the ability to make that determination.

As for the remarks about hipocracy and a "holier than thou" attitude, I am not sure who you are referring to? Wrong is wrong, seeing it and pointing it out is not being above anyone nor is it being a hipocrit. As for judging, ultimately it is not my responsibility to judge. In the end, final judgement will be passed by the maker and they not me will have to answer for their actions.

[horst]

There is a certain amount of hypocrisy that comes with any discussion of taking a human life.Right now your talking about abortion and the majority view in here on that is its wrong under any circumstances.

Yet if were discussing the war where thousands have been killed under the orders of our government the majority view shifts and the taking of human lifes a neccasary evil.Even a certain amount of innocent bystanders getting killed is accaptable then.

And shift the topic to the death penalty and again, the same ones that are dead set againt abortion are all in favor of it.And thats where the holier than though attitude comes out in a lotta people, they only use the religous arguments against murder when it suits them.

I know, your gonna come back with a "if you cant see the difference" argument so save your breath, theres no difference if your preaching against taking a human life.Remember, your the ones claiming its murder under any circumstances, those circumstances cover a lotta ground.

[johnf]

The entire nation of Isreal was destroyed and went into captivity because they began worshiping another god and began to sacrifice thier children to it.

God clearly does not want the life taken of an unborn child.

On the other hand God spells out specific instances for a person to be put to death for thier sins and in the old testiment he made certain that when Isreal went to war that every thing of the enimies was to be destroyed from the leaders to the women and children to there livestock and even the pot they held their grain in.

I believe the word hypocritical means to say one thing and do the other. Having a different oppinion on an inoccent baby and a murderer and rapist is not hypocritical at all they're two seperate issues.

How is it hypicritical to have the same standards of God?

To use your definition of the word then pro-choice folks are bigger hypocrites. They do not value an unborn innocent person as much as one who has commited horrible crimes.

[horst]

[ QUOTE ]
Having a different oppinion on an inoccent baby and a murderer and rapist is not hypocritical at all they're two seperate issues.

[/ QUOTE ]

John, what the person did isnt the issue, its the act of killing them thats the same.How many innocent people have been killed in the name of religion throughout history?How many in the name of christianity?

The only difference is if you tell someone their killing for a good reason they can justify it in thier own mind, just like everyone in here seems to be able to do.Im no different , I can easily justify taking the life of a terrorist or rapist, child molestor or a murder.

But Im not gonna delude myself into thinking killing anyone for one reasons better than killing a person for a different reason.The end results the same, your taking a life.Im just as hypocritical as the next person when it comes to this but Im not gonna skirt around it try to rationalize it like so many of you seem to have to do.

[johnf]

What the person did is the issue horst otherwise the only punishment for crime would be death, the ultilmate deturant.

We have laws that say, if you do this, then this is your punishment death is reserved for only the worst of criminals. So how can you say that the two are the same. That seems hypocritical to me.

[wtnhunt]

OK, so in the sense that Chris is referring to being a hipocrit here, I will admit I am a hipocrit. I was under the impression that this thread was discussing abortion, did not realize capital punishment had been brought into this thread. I am for the taking of a life of a murderer, rapist or child molesterer. I dont agree with the idea that taking a life is taking a life and it is all the same no matter what the circumstances, but guess I am a hipocrit. Someone can call me a hipocrit all they want, that will not change my opinions, sure I have been called worse. In my mind the taking of a life of an unborn child is wrong, while taking the life of a person who is guilty of a horrible crime against another human is in my eyes a good way to set an example and rid the world of that person.

[hookedonhunting]

in my opinion this is murder. whether partial birth or not. people are sick!

[hookedonhunting]

people are sick!

[/ QUOTE ]


im not talking of anybody on this forum

[Canadian_Goose]

hold on horst here comes back up... I'm with ya buddy. But since i cannot speak for horst you cannot associate my views with his, as I may have misinterpreted them. Just a little dislcaimer.

Okay first off... If the death penalty is such a great detterant, how come people are still being executed?

Second, The basis of which you judge ehtical descions such as the death penalty and abortion are based on your own values and traditions (ie: the christian word). So when you start comparing other people to those standards, its not really fair (i believe) because these are the standards that you have made and chose to abide to. The beutiful thing about this world is that we are all diffrent, wouldn't it be boring if we are all the same, but we cannot impose our values on other people because thats usually referred to as ethnocentrism if I am correct.

And i know this is going to open up a whole can of worms and I'm sorry for the hijack but here is an example of inflicting values. The opostion of same sex union. People here have compiled arguements trying to abolish the idea of this. Arrguements based on "because god said it's wrong" and "whats wrong is wrong". To the first one, what if they do not believe in your god, and to the second, who deterimines what is wrong. There are alot of anti hunters out there trying to inflict their values on us by saying killing animals is wrong, and how do we respond to that. Furthermore to defend my point, whether homosexuality is a concious choice or a unexplainable compulsion, the fact remains that no one is forcing you to be a homosexual. No one is forcing you to watch Brokeback mountian or attend the gay pride parade. I'll admit i am still very uneasy about seeing two men kiss, but the fact remains that they are not trying to infleunce me they just want to live thier life. And hey when we are all dead and it turns out that you were all right about homosexuality, then you wont have to worry about seeing them in heaven. Just my extra 2 cents. I am open for comments but please do not attack me. Also please do not associate my reply with that of horst, i just meant to say that I agreed with what he was saying but had my own tangent to go off on. Good luck

Tristan

[WEEGEE9]

lets see.. it's not really a person till it's third tri... so it's not really killing anything, right... so why is it a double murder if a pregnent women is killed no matter what trimester she's in? it's not a choice, it"s a child, a kid, a person. oh yea. the pros. are ok with abortian, but don't spank your kid, or they will have the law at your door...

[johnf]

The death penalty would be better if used like it was intended, quickly, painfully and often.

To use the bible for values is to have something concrete that we can say our values are from. Those who don't have something concrete only have feelings that can change in a heart beat.

Consistancey is the only answer to true values. The bible gives us that consistancey.

[Canadian_Goose]

[ QUOTE ]

To use the bible for values is to have something concrete that we can say our values are from. Those who don't have something concrete only have feelings that can change in a heart beat.

Consistancey is the only answer to true values. The bible gives us that consistancey.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah but those are your values, but i believe that I have a solid set of values that derived from other places than the bible. I did not need the bible to tell me that murder is a bad thing. I actually agree with you on consitanscy (but once again my opinion) as religion is not only an orientation of faith but provides structural support to many. Relgion has both saved and ended many lives, so while one may elect to live life by the scripture (and there are many interpretations, hence catholics, protestants, anglicans mennonites etc. not including eastern religions), i believe it is wrong to use that as the basis for which others are judged.

As for the death penalty, wht do you propose about wrongful convictions? Is it not then murder if you have killed someone who is truly innocent. The Rosevelts for example. And do you think your government freely dislcoses all of the wrongfuly executed people over the years? Plus most murders are crimes of passion and those that are not, are caused by people who think they are too smart to get caght. Now tell me how do you stop people who are passionate and believe they are unstoppable, with the threat of death?

[johnf]

[ QUOTE ]


Ah but those are your values,

[/ QUOTE ]


and the values of those who wrote the constitution, thus making them the original values of the US government.


[ QUOTE ]



but i believe that I have a solid set of values that derived from other places than the bible. I did not need the bible to tell me that murder is a bad thing.

[/ QUOTE ]


So what is the origin of those values?


[ QUOTE ]
Relgion has both saved and ended many lives, so while one may elect to live life by the scripture (and there are many interpretations, hence catholics, protestants, anglicans mennonites etc. not including eastern religions), i believe it is wrong to use that as the basis for which others are judged.

[/ QUOTE ]


I don't belive I said anything about religion, I said the bible. The bible is not a religion, it's a book.


[ QUOTE ]
As for the death penalty, wht do you propose about wrongful convictions? Is it not then murder if you have killed someone who is truly innocent. The Rosevelts for example. And do you think your government freely dislcoses all of the wrongfuly executed people over the years? Plus most murders are crimes of passion and those that are not, are caused by people who think they are too smart to get caght. Now tell me how do you stop people who are passionate and believe they are unstoppable, with the threat of death?

[/ QUOTE ]


I believe that many innocent people have died through exicution. Yes some have been set free bccause of DNA evidence. But with that same DNA evidence we could be more sure about those who would recieve the death penalty and less innocent people would die. As for a deturant to crime, I've never known of a person who recieved the death penalty raping and killing another person after being relieced from the death chamber.

I don't belive crimes of passion are elligible for capital punishment, I may be wrong.

[Canadian_Goose]

values change along with the population. AS technology, ideology, methedology advance, so must the values. While some values appear to remain static (ie: monogomous marraiges in western civilization). Constitutions (though heavily entrenched) have changed as well. Remeber it wasn't long ago that slaverly was an ethically sound practice. I am not saying that you have to be pro-abortion or pro homosexual or pro-anything. AS for detterence it acts on more than the level of re-offence but also setting an example for "future criminals". I believe our interpretations got mixed up and that was a misunderstanding. What I was trying to say is that the death penalty does not detterre murder and rape, because the people think they will get away with it or are usually suicidal to begin with. Your probably right about the crimes of passion though I"m not sure we no longer have the death penalty up here. I'm not saying don't use it either, because I sometimes have trouble finding punishment for a serial rapist/murderer, but what i am saying is use it with extreme care. People make mistakes, lawyers and judges can lie and think of it this way... how would you like to be one of those "less innocent people" that sit on death row. Even before DNA evidence was the rule for criminal conviction "beyond a reasonable doubt"... **** thats how OJ got off. But yet innocent people die at the hands of executioners because our legal systems are not perfect.
As for my values they may contain significant portions of christain beliefs, I might even be an avid church attender, but what I am saying is not that your view is wrong, but rather to critize or deny other peoples values and beliefs based on your own values and beliefs is a rather hypocrytical arguement (usually ending with "because I said so"). I hope this clears up what I am trying to say.

[johnf]

[ QUOTE ]
values change along with the population.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Iranian people think Isreal and the US should be nuked. Does that make them right?

Just because the majority believes it doesn't make it right. Just because an ideology, or methodology has changed does not mean it has advanced. Take the language and behavior on tv. It has changed tremendously in the passed 10 years. They now have neudity and language that when I was young would have gotten it an "R" rating. That's not advancement, it is mearly change.

[ QUOTE ]
remeber it wasn't long ago that slaverly was an ethically sound practice.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe it was George Washington who called slavery a neccisary evil that was used to unite the country at it's inception. It was never widely accepted as "ethical".

As for the death penalty and abortion as equils, I don't see any corrialtion. I do contend any time an innocent life is taken, it is a tragity. But in the case of an abortion we know 100% that the baby has never done anything wrong and dose not by any stretch of the imagination deserve death, while a person on death row went through a legthy trial where all the evidence possible was given in thier defence. 11 people took this evidence and concluded that beyond a shadow of a doubt this person was guilty. They then took midigating factors in consideration and with the severity of the crime determined that the person deserved the greatest punishment that man can give.

I honestly don't understand how a resonable person could compare the two.

[Canadian_Goose]

I am not comparing abortion and execution and saying one is ethical or not. What I am trying to do is show you that there are indeed two sides of the story and not everyone believes in YOUR god and not everyone has to follow YOUR rules. My values are probably not that far off of yours in regards to things like execution and child rearing (despite the fact that I have no kids). What I am trying to get you to look at is the fact that the legal system isn't perfect and that the death penalty is perhaps not something that should be used "quickly, painfully and often". That people have extenuating circumstances and things are rarely black and white. Redemption is in the dictionary for a reason, what good is word that has no use. And so is forgiveness and I also believe it is one of the underlying thesis of the bible (although I have never read it but that's what I've been told). And can someone who has had premarital sex still grow up to be a good person, I think so.

I understand that people must have laws but those laws are supposed to reflect society. Why do Iseral and Iran want to nuke the US? Does it say that in their constituition or relgion or book of faith? Do they want to nuke anyone else? I'm not too up to date on this subject actually. Hope you can help me out.

Tristan

[buckee]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do Iseral and Iran want to nuke the US?

[/ QUOTE ]
DUH ... Israel wants to Nuke the US eh. That's a good one. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[johnf]

[ QUOTE ]
The Iranian people think Isreal and the US should be nuked

[/ QUOTE ]

Should have read that slower.

[ QUOTE ]
I understand that people must have laws but those laws are supposed to reflect society.

[/ QUOTE ]

As a teacher I would have to disagree with this statement. I have rules to shape my classroom, not a classroom to shape my rules.

There would be no consistancy with this approach. I believe you agreed with me earlier on that.

[wtnhunt]

I do not base my thoughts on abortion from anything to do with the bible. My views in life have been that abortion was wrong since before I became a parent, but as a parent that has really been that much more reinforced. I base my thoughts as a parent and my feelings towards children. Morally I think it is wrong period.

[horst]

You guys are misunderstanding what Im getting at and it all goes back to a comment in my earlier post.Ill agree, abortion when just used as birth control is wrong.My only problem is with the holier than though types who come across saying abortions wrong under any circumstances.Thier talking about a lot of things theyve never dealt with personally and that doesnt make them eligible to judge anyone IMO.Its all about circumstanses.

[Canadian_Goose]

Sorry shoulda read slower your right (you know us Canadains, buckees the only quick one in the crowd). , but john surely your teching strategy has to change from class to class as the needs of those individuals fluxuate. You can't expect a mentally handicap who has repetative cognitive problems, to learn the same way the more fortunate kids can). When I said consistancy i was refering to the individual. The individual must have a consistant set of values (in my opinion). I'm stressing individuality here not complete comformity. That is why you are the land of the free no? So thusly everyone does not have to have the same values and ethics, but should those values and ethics go against the laws, i believe they should be punished if the commit an offence. And part of that individualty is contextualy (or circumstancly) based as horst explains.

Bottom line is what makes your values better than mine?

[johnf]

Laws, whether you admit to it or not, are basically a binding moral code that our country goes by and are punishable to varying degrees.

As for the rules of my classroom, they are identical for every class. Everyone knows what I expect of them regardless of what time of day they walk in my door.

Rules and teaching stratigies are two different things.

[wtnhunt]

[ QUOTE ]
You guys are misunderstanding what Im getting at and it all goes back to a comment in my earlier post.Ill agree, abortion when just used as birth control is wrong.My only problem is with the holier than though types who come across saying abortions wrong under any circumstances.Thier talking about a lot of things theyve never dealt with personally and that doesnt make them eligible to judge anyone IMO.Its all about circumstanses.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do see what you are saying Chris, and agree with you about circumstances. I think I responded with my thoughts about circumstances. My thoughts are that victims of rape, and in women who physicians have acknowledged that the child or the mother or both might ultimately die if the baby is carried to term, that the mother has the right only in those circumstances to make that educated choice. I say educated choice in meaning that they have talked to physicians and or counselors in rape cases prior to making the decision to take the unborn childs life.

I can really empathize for those victims of rape and those persons put into those type situations of having to make a choice, having to deal with carrying around with them that choice either way for the remainder of their life.

[Canadian_Goose]

john you can attack my analogies all you want but you have never dealt with the issue of individuality. Your responses have slowly lost their theme or thesis and have ultimately simply become critisms of my posts, beating around the bush at the weaker parts of it. I have embreaced and ackowledged your postion and I respect it as well. I have yet to seem the same respect from you. I am not asking you to tell me I'm right but rather instead ackowledge that other people can embrace ways that are not the way. If you can do that I have made my point and will let you vote or advocate for pro execution, proabstience, and anti-abortion laws. If not I propse to you the same question as I did earlier...
what makes your values better than mine.

that is what you are aiming at no. Your right to judge?

Thanks for reading,

Tristan

[johnf]

I'm sorry I thought there was a debate going on here. I don't agree with your positions and gave you reasons why I didn't.

[johnf]

[ QUOTE ]

I can really empathize for those victims of rape and those persons put into those type situations of having to make a choice, having to deal with carrying around with them that choice either way for the remainder of their life.

[/ QUOTE ]

I may be wrong here, but I think that rape victems are given RU486 or something like that to abort or prevent a pregnancey in the same way the pill works. That being said I know there are some cercumstances like insest or an unreported rape of an ashamed girl that go on longer. I can't honestly say what I would do if my daughter were in that situation.

I can say this without hesitation. Any time during the 3rd trimester that a baby needs to be taken from the mothers body for any reason there is a better than 50% chance that the baby would live on it's own. A "C" section is the fastest and least tramatic way to remove the baby from the mother and it doesn't have to die. Some of these babies would die, but at least they would have a fighting chance.

[stevebeilgard]

hey horst. ever notice how those who love abortion and agree we must have it available to all wome, are totally against the death penalty for a convicted rapist or murderer? o.k. to kill kids, but not murderers? i think someone is backwards here.

[wtnhunt]

[ QUOTE ]
hey horst. ever notice how those who love abortion and agree we must have it available to all wome, are totally against the death penalty for a convicted rapist or murderer? o.k. to kill kids, but not murderers? i think someone is backwards here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have noticed that too, and maybe it is just coincedental and I am not trying to point fingers or make associations linked to all members of a party, but it seems that most democrats in positions have over the years seemed to be pro choice(for abortions, killing innocent unborn babies), but then they are against the death penalty http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif.

[wtnhunt]

[ QUOTE ]
I may be wrong here, but I think that rape victems are given RU486 or something like that to abort or prevent a pregnancey in the same way the pill works. That being said I know there are some cercumstances like insest or an unreported rape of an ashamed girl that go on longer. I can't honestly say what I would do if my daughter were in that situation.


[/ QUOTE ]

I would imagine that often the victims in some of these type terrible situations do not know right away that they are pregnant, and it may not even be a consideration for the day after pill, or they may not go forward to let anyone know as you say for feelings of shame. In those victims who make the choice to have an abortion, those are who I was referring to.

As for what I would do, I am not sure either John. Aside from being supportive of and respecting your daughters thoughts, just not sure really what more you could do aside from hunting down and castrating the responsible filth who carried out the act.

[buckee]

[ QUOTE ]
aside from hunting down and castrating the responsible filth who carried out the act.


[/ QUOTE ]
A much better idea, instead of murdering an innocent child http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[horst]

[ QUOTE ]
hey horst. ever notice how those who love abortion and agree we must have it available to all wome, are totally against the death penalty for a convicted rapist or murderer? o.k. to kill kids, but not murderers? i think someone is backwards here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep Ive noticed that to Steve.Also noticed that the same ones against all forms of abortion are also totaly against providing birth control to young people.Apparently theres lots of illogical people out there http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Canadian_Goose]

well john, if you are so clear on my postion then you wouldn't mind paraphrasing my position than would you.

[buckee]

[ QUOTE ]
Yep Ive noticed that to Steve.Also noticed that the same ones against all forms of abortion are also totaly against providing birth control to young people.Apparently theres lots of illogical people out there

[/ QUOTE ]
That's because there is a Morality problem in the world Horst. You can't fix that with rubber and the murders of the innocent.

[johnf]

I think you are perosnally against the idea of abortion but maintain the right of the idividual to choose. You see it as a moral issue that should be seperate from public law.

Am I wrong?

[buckee]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you are personally against the idea of abortion but maintain the right of the individual to choose. You see it as a moral issue that should be separate from public law.

Am I wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]
But, shouldn't good sound laws be based on good sound morality at the same time? When we make laws that are immoral, we just contribute more to the breakdown of society.

[horst]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yep Ive noticed that to Steve.Also noticed that the same ones against all forms of abortion are also totaly against providing birth control to young people.Apparently theres lots of illogical people out there

[/ QUOTE ]
That's because there is a Morality problem in the world Horst. You can't fix that with rubber and the murders of the innocent.

[/ QUOTE ]

And now your back to the hypocritical aspect of things.Everyone in here had sex before marriage Id guesse.Id also bet a lotta of us had unprotected pre-marital sex.Now that some of you found relgion its a Moralitry problem.Sorry, I cant go along with that.Its not just one sides argument that doesnt make any sense Buckee, neither sidesdoes.You all just cant see it cause your so convinced your right.

[buckee]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yep Ive noticed that to Steve.Also noticed that the same ones against all forms of abortion are also totaly against providing birth control to young people.Apparently theres lots of illogical people out there

[/ QUOTE ]
That's because there is a Morality problem in the world Horst. You can't fix that with rubber and the murders of the innocent.

[/ QUOTE ]

And now your back to the hypocritical aspect of things.Everyone in here had sex before marriage Id guesse.Id also bet a lotta of us had unprotected pre-marital sex. Now that some of you found relgion its a Moralitry problem.Sorry, I cant go along with that.Its not just one sides argument that doesnt make any sense Buckee, neither side does.You all just cant see it cause your so convinced your right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not hypocritical at all, since we as Christians are called to judge all things, whether they be good or bad.
There is nothing hypocritical about judging things, acts, laws, etc.
In order to live our lives in defense of the truth, we must be able and willing to judge the morality of acts.
But the judgment of individuals must always be left to God. He alone knows the hearts and minds of us all. He alone knows how to judge how culpable we are for any of our actions.

The old saying that we should "hate the sin, but love the sinner" is to remind us that we must be compassionate and understanding. Indeed, out of humility and generosity, we should always assume, and pray, that the sins of others are moderated or tempered by some sort of ignorance or lack of freedom which will lessen their culpability in the eyes of God.
Just because someone has done something in their life that is contrary to what they now believe is wrong, does not make what they did right. It is far from being hypocritical.

[TreeStandBowHunter]

I don't believe in abortion and I believe in the death penalty. I guess that makes me a hyprocrit http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Oh I am a hyprocrit oh yes I am but at least I don't think someone should die if they are innocent. I mean at least the bad guys did something to deserve being killed. What did that child do? The child isin't the one that had sex and was irresponsible. The two doing it were.

[Reloader]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yep Ive noticed that to Steve.Also noticed that the same ones against all forms of abortion are also totaly against providing birth control to young people.Apparently theres lots of illogical people out there

[/ QUOTE ]
That's because there is a Morality problem in the world Horst. You can't fix that with rubber and the murders of the innocent.

[/ QUOTE ]

And now your back to the hypocritical aspect of things. Everyone in here had sex before marriage Id guesse. Id also bet a lotta of us had unprotected pre-marital sex.Now that some of you found relgion its a Moralitry problem.Sorry, I cant go along with that.Its not just one sides argument that doesnt make any sense Buckee, neither sidesdoes.You all just cant see it cause your so convinced your right.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry Horst...you guessed wrong. I would be willing to bet that I am not the only one who remained a virgin till I married! http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif I would also bet that the majority of those that did have premarital sex regret it in some way! Buckee has said as much regarding himself, and I have seen the problems it can cause in both male and female adolescents as a Counselor.

Teaching and pushing birth control and "Safer" sex concepts promotes the idea that kids can get away with doing it. Encuraging the behavior and adopting the attitude that they are gonna do it anyway is a self defeating principal. Have you read about the explosion of cases of Gonorea of the throat in adolescent girls...I leave how they got it up to your imagination...but it was promoted to them as safe since they couldn't get pregnant...

Teaching that abstinence is the only sure method of avoiding STD's and pregnancy is truth. The best Birth control methods are only 99% effective...IN LABS!!!! In reality they fail much more often. I know several families that have had all their children through "safe" sex. All the methods fail, regularly. They fail even more often in preventing transmission of STD's. The viruses and bacteria that constitute STD's are much smaller particles than the human sperm and are regularly passed through or arround safe sex barriers. In fact those particles, especialy the ones caused by viruses, are smaller than the average natural pore(hole) in surgical grade latex. Paramedics and surgeons generaly wear 2 pair of gloves for surgical or severe wound care, and during my healthcare providor training I was informed that 9 times out of 10 when the surgeon or medic is done with a job, blood and other body fluids are inside the outer glove. (Trained in advanced first aid, search and rescue and basic lifesuport, both as a climbing instructor then as a hospital technician. Thank God I've never had to use it so far beyond normal cuts scrapes and a few cases of embeded gravel in knees after skating or biking accidents.)

Back to the main topic of this post...Partial birth abortion is by definition done to a child that is almost born. In every case we are talking about a "viable child". Viable meaning they have a high chance of surviving outside the mother. Therefore I can't see anyone arguing that it is ever justified. Period! See the above posts detailing the process of a Partial birth abortion vs C-section, and the fact that a C-section is much more medicaly viable.

All other forms of abortion (even those restricted to the first trimester on a suposed "blob of tissue") are still wrong in my opinion...many pro-choice people state cases of rape, or eminent death of mother and child....
OK first rape: I am not opposed to conception prevention post intercourse pills. They are given to rape victims regularly when the rape is reported in the first aprox 72 hours, after that I don't think they are effective. Granted there are plenty of cases not reported in this window of time for various reasons. However, Abortion is not the answer for those women IMO. I have seen cases as a Mental health therapist (Masters Degree in Counseling) where women that have been raped and became pregnant gave birth to the child and then put them up for adoption. In every case I have seen or read about the woman was able to look at the life brought into the world as a beautiful outcome and resolution to a horrible event. The joy brought to the adopting family can never remove the pain of the rape, but it does help them see hope in their future. Abortion simply leaves them with burried pain and nothing positive to focus on and actualy makes the process of recovery harder. Arguing that the child will be a constant reminder of the painful event are simply ignorant statements attempting to conjure suport for the pro-choice agenda.
And the expected Death of both child and mother...I have never seen or heard of a documented case where this was demonstrated. Seen them where the doctor said well this is a possibility...so we better abort...but never an actual iminent case of death...I am not sure that it is medicaly accurate to say that such a case even exists...I have heard several stories from close friends and papers that document cases where the doctor said they needed to abort due to eminent death to mother and child...and both survived...one where the twins survived but the mother died (that one was cancer...the cancer treatments would have killed the children but MAY have saved the mother, without them the cancer was too far advanced to fight once they were born).

Equating abortion and death penalty as both taking a human life are correct, however, abortion is murder, taking of a human life without just cause, while killing in self defense, war or in the case of the death penalty is not murder.
Case in point, a woman entered an abortion clinic and requested an abortion. her credit check was returned too low for the doctor and she had no insurance so the doctor turned her away. She went home and shot herself in the abdomen with a pistol, killing the child inside her. She was rushed to the hospital where the child was removed and pronounced dead...she was stiched up...THEN ARRESTED FOR 1st DEGREE MURDER! Had she had $700 bucks in cash she could have legaly killed her child and walked away, but because she had poor credit and no insurance it was a crime!
It is not Pro-lifers who are hypocritical...(ok some are but not the concept itself) but rather the laws that Deny the life of the child in a context that earns corrupt doctors (take a look at the hipocratic[sp] oath all American doctors swear if you want to argue that it is not corrupt) cash, but recognize it when prosecuting those that were unable or unwilling to line someone elses pockets.

I am aware that I probobly come across as a "know it all" and am sorry if you get that impression, however these are topics I have direct training and first hand knowledge about. If you would like to counter my arguments please do so...

[wtnhunt]

Some may view me as a hipocrit, but I maintain my views. I do not agree with using abortion as birth control. I agree with a lot of what you have to say here reloader, but admit I am somewhat ignorant to all the statistics despite hearing things on the news and radio, but have a few questions.

Is there or is there not any link at all to suicides in women who are pregnant victims of rape?

Is it really morally or ethically right, or in any way yours or my choice to tell a young teenage girl or, any victim for that matter, that she cannot destroy the life created in her body that she did not ask for, a life created out of hatred, not love? Essentially the school girl trying to finish high school who is now being ridiculed and who will have 9 months of her life carrying a life that was forced on her, is it really right for society to force their decision on her?

Irresponsibility and circumstance are two totally different things. I agree that abortion as birth control is totally wrong. That is irresponsibility. I admittedly have been irresbonsible in my life, but fortunately have not had any of my irresponsibilities lead to any situations such that there would be a choice, not that there would have ever been any choice to be made. As for having premarital activity without protection, it happens. Educating about abstinence is great, but most of us still did or do have premarital activity and often without any protection. Taking the attitude that it is going to happen anyways, I agree is not a good approach for educating kids. However educating the kids to be prepared if they do make that choice that is something that we realistically have to do as parents, not just for the birth control side, but also for the nasty side you make mention of where all the stds are there. We need to be more proactive in educating kids in todays world to be responsible and be more alert to what can happen.

Further teaching practices should include making kids more aware just what it takes to raise a kid in this world today that we live in.

[horst]

Reloader, Im glad you waited, I really mean that , but how many people are in this forum and your the only one so far thats honestly said they waited.

Ill ask it again, birth controls not 100% effective at stopping pregnancy and STDs.But what happens to the odds when you take birth control completey outta the picture as an option?You think these kids are just gonna stop having sex because you tell em to?

Back to the topic?Do you see where I ever said partial birth abortion is right?Do you see where I ever said abortion as a form of birth control is right?

Do you really feel qualified to speak for rape victims?And despite admitting doctors documenting this you really believe theres never been any cases where the life of mother and child are at risk?Thats funny cuz my mom almost bleed out when she was pregnant with my sister and something tore loose.She lost the baby while they were trying to save her, it was one or the other.I also lost a son that was going to be born with no kidneys.He wouldnt have lasted more than a few hours after birth anyway you looked at it.We decided to deliever early{abort the pregnancy} rather then putting my wife through 9 months of carrying a dead baby and putting my kids through 9 months of expecting a baby that was never gonna come home from the hospital.Like I said, theres a lotta cicumstances youve never been put into to find out what youd do.A lotta things you cant get from studies and books.So dont be so quick to judge and lump everyone together in one catagory.

[buckee]

[ QUOTE ]
Ill ask it again, birth controls not 100% effective at stopping pregnancy and STDs.But what happens to the odds when you take birth control completey outta the picture as an option?You think these kids are just gonna stop having sex because you tell em to?

[/ QUOTE ]
In other words Horst, you believe that taking away the consequences to someones actions is the cure-all here. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif That just doesn't make sense to me. Morality, integrity and ethics, are all maintained because of the consequences the alternatives bring. When you take away, or try to subdue or minimize the consequences of someones actions, you are breaking down the very fabric of society, not building on it.
This is my opinion.
It's easy to say, but we would also need a lot of love involved here too, with different programs and support groups, etc.

My wife lost 2 children on the operating table also Horst. (Tubal pregnancies both) In both cases, the baby and Mother would have both died, if an operation hadn't happened. My wife almost bled to death the second time, when the side of her uterus blew out.
In those types of cases Horst, it is way different.

[johnf]

Still no reply from Canadian, Guess I was right. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Canadian_Goose]

You were right John... I was off for most of the weekend. My horns arent as big as some around here, which implys that I don't frequent the site as often as some. But as long as you understand where I'm coming ofrom I am perfectly contempt with what has happened here and am quite tired of playing devils advocate. Good talking with you John. And Horst I still support you with the birth control.

[wtnhunt]

[ QUOTE ]
And now your back to the hypocritical aspect of things. Everyone in here had sex before marriage Id guesse. Id also bet a lotta of us had unprotected pre-marital sex.Now that some of you found relgion its a Moralitry problem.Sorry, I cant go along with that.Its not just one sides argument that doesnt make any sense Buckee, neither sidesdoes.You all just cant see it cause your so convinced your right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Religion aside from this discussion as I said before, I personally have not based my views on abortion from anything to do with religion. Morality and religion can work together, however a person can have morals without any religion. A persons who does not know God can have a conscience that will lead them down the right path when being faced with situations where they may be tempted to abort a life. Morals and ethics have more in my opinion to do with upbringing.

I do agree with reloader that properly educating people definitely can help, but temptation and a society where premarital sex is common, the realistic view in my honest opinion is that if your kids are going to do it you would want them to be protected. You can raise them right and teach them to abstain, but when it comes right down to it, you cannot make their choices for them. That in mind it is better for them to be educated.

[wtnhunt]

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder where people think morals came from?

[/ QUOTE ]

I hear people make the reference to morals coming from the bible, but I think mankind in general knows right and wrong without any religious influence. If morals come from religion, how can an atheist have strong moral values. Noone can tell me they dont, because I have a neighbor who does not believe in God, who is otherwise as good as gold.

[ QUOTE ]
When you teach kids that pre-marital sex is wrong then turn around and say but here put these condoms in your wallet or get them a prescription for birth control you are sending a mixed message that is confusing to kids and ten out of ten times the message they're really getting is "go out and have sex but protect yourself

[/ QUOTE ]

So then you are saying we should teach and preach abstinence and ignore educating our children about taking any precautions in the event they do give in to temptation?

If that is the case, you can hope that your kids will not do what you yourself might or might not have done. You can hope they do not sucomb to peer pressure. You can hope they dont at some point through ignorance make a mistake that might potentially lead to teenage pregnancy, or worse contract a disease that could potentially kill them. That seems to me to be alot riding solely on hope.

Educating and condoning can be discriminated. That is where a parent has to explain and attempt to lead a child in the right direction. This idea that becuase you educate a child about use of precautions if they end up not abstaining as being in some way condoning them having sex is really far fetched in my opinion.

[horst]

[ QUOTE ]
By the way your way of informing kids about sex and having so-called safe sex hasn't worked,kids are getting pregnant(and having abortions)in record numbers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats the whole point, what happens when you take birth control entirely off the table and expect lectures to keep them safe?Nobody said educating them was wrong, the whole point was a lotta them are still gonna give in no matter how good the parenting is.

[wtnhunt]

[ QUOTE ]
No I am not saying don't educate kids about sex,I have educated my kids about sex and the consequences that could arise,besides reminding them frequently it is basically up to them to do the right thing or face the consequences.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you here on this point. I am not saying I am going to rush out to get any of my daughters on birth conrtrol or give them contraceptives. I am saying that if we educate them and raise them right we have done pretty well all we can, but we(parents, not schools) have to also educate them so that they know that if they do give in that they need to protect themselves. Teaching protection and preparing kids in the appropriate manner is not condoning having activity, kind of like you say informing kids of the consequences.

[slugshooter]

[ QUOTE ]
By the way your way of informing kids about sex and having so-called safe sex hasn't worked,kids are getting pregnant(and having abortions)in record numbers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, the number of unwed teenage mothers has declined in the last ten or so years. Read it last year.

[Canadian_Goose]

I think wtnhunt and horst are saying the same thing?

[Reloader]

[ QUOTE ]
Is there or is there not any link at all to suicides in women who are pregnant victims of rape?

[/ QUOTE ]
I am not precicely sure what you mean...If you could clarify what stats you are looking for I will do my best to answer...
The higest rate of mental illness to grow out of rape or other violent assault in women is Borderline Personality Disorder and Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. The depression of early PTSD can include suicide risk, and BPS has a high instance of chronic suicide attempts, the vast majority of which are intended to generate further sympathy and do not lead to death...but that is like playing Russian Roulette...eventualy some succeed (Die) on accident. However I am not aware of any statistics on wether pregnancy resulting from the rape would make any difference either way...I will look further if that is what you realy wanted to ask.

[ QUOTE ]
Is it really morally or ethically right, or in any way yours or my choice to tell a young teenage girl or, any victim for that matter, that she cannot destroy the life created in her body that she did not ask for, a life created out of hatred, not love?

[/ QUOTE ]
Let me turn this arround a bit... the way I look at it..Is it anyones right (even her's) to "destroy the life created in her"?
Regardless of how they were created, I do not believe we have the right to kill any inocent. Did the child rape her?...ask to be created?...deserve to die?
[ QUOTE ]
Essentially the school girl trying to finish high school who is now being ridiculed and who will have 9 months of her life carrying a life that was forced on her, is it really right for society to force their decision on her?

[/ QUOTE ]

You present a very real and very difficult situation. But again I ask you does dificulty justify the death of an inocent?

[ QUOTE ]
Irresponsibility and circumstance are two totally different things. I agree that abortion as birth control is totally wrong. That is irresponsibility. I admittedly have been irresbonsible in my life, but fortunately have not had any of my irresponsibilities lead to any situations such that there would be a choice, not that there would have ever been any choice to be made.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gotta agree with you there!

[ QUOTE ]
As for having premarital activity without protection, it happens. Educating about abstinence is great, but most of us still did or do have premarital activity and often without any protection. Taking the attitude that it is going to happen anyways, I agree is not a good approach for educating kids. However educating the kids to be prepared if they do make that choice that is something that we realistically have to do as parents, not just for the birth control side, but also for the nasty side you make mention of where all the stds are there. We need to be more proactive in educating kids in todays world to be responsible and be more alert to what can happen.

Further teaching practices should include making kids more aware just what it takes to raise a kid in this world today that we live in.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a fine line between teaching kids about abstinence but including a piece on "protection"...VS...teaching kids abstinence is a good idea but since you are gonna do it anyway here take thse condoms...
I realize I am streching the extreems here and don't mean to say that is what you are advocating!
Teaching on "protection" should be primarily focused on the remaining risks, not the percieved protection as it does now.
On the spot birth control (as opposed to pills and such) is considered effective somewhere in the 80-90% range. These numbers take the total number of times they are used devided by the number of pregnacies that result. However these numbers include the times protection failed but the girl/woman was not ovulating therefore no pregnancy occured. since a woman is only fertile for aproxomately 10-20% of her cycle it tells us that the failure rate of the birth control is closer to 50% or more but apears less due to the chance of not being fertile at the time.
After dealing with the pregnancy aspect you look at STDs...they have an even higher rate of transmission through "protection". Body fluid diseases account for many of the STDs and they can pass a barrier even more readily than the human sperm...which we have already seen passes near 50% or more of the time. However they are not the only STD's herpes, Crabs, and several others are skin related. They can be transmited through pubic skin contact not just areas covered by "protection". Thus they have a nearly 100% transmission rate..."protection" or not. Failure rates for STD transmission are squed as well since not everyone is infected so not all sex will transmit it therefore it is nearly impossible to get adequate numbers for those statistics.
Very littel time in "sex ed" is spent in discussing the practical failure rate of "protection methods". Teachers and educators argue that they don't want to scare kids. If its my kid...SCARE THE SNOT OUTA THEM!!! It is a scary buisness and they deserve to know the real story...
IMO "protection" for pregnancy is Russian Roulette at best and preventing STDs with them is like Russian Roulette with a semi-automatic pistol.

[Reloader]

Horst I sincerly apologise that my earlier post seems to imply I was rebuting your arguments the whole way through. I did not mean to imply that you supported partial birth abortion or abortion as birth control. that was not my intention at all. My only comments aimed at your post were the ones refering to premarital sex issues.

As to the abortions for Life of mother argument, I stand very corrected by both you and Buckee. I was refering to "preventative" abortions and did not include crisis issues such as tubal pregnacies or injuries resulting in uterine bleeding in my reasoning. These types of situations are very different, and I am sorry for both of your losses.
My only hope for the future of such cases is that doctors continue to do everything in their power to save both and that the loss of a child is just that, a justified loss, not a justified treatment.

As to the instance of the child with no kidneys...to me that falls under a different category. Birth defects severe enough to constitute an unviable child such as no kidneys...(I am not refering to autism, Cerebral palsey or other such disorders that do not result in immediate death of the child) will kill the child naturaly. A doctor removing such an unviable fetus (note this is the one and only time in any post you will see me not refer to it as a child since it can not live on its own) is completing the natural process of miscarriage and not preforming an abortion in my opinion.

[ QUOTE ]
Do you really feel qualified to speak for rape victims?

[/ QUOTE ]
I am qualified to speak on behalf of victims of violence and have done so in court on several occasions. I have not testified on behalf of victims of rape, though I have worked with them in counseling. Most of my court testimony, or depositions, have been on behalf of physicaly, sexualy and emotionaly abused kids.

[buckee]

Some very good informed reading there reloader. Thank you

[slugshooter]

[ QUOTE ]

Slugshooter,I can't say for sure but one reason the single teen mother rate has gone down is that they are getting abortions before they become single teen mothers.


[/ QUOTE ]

It probably would have made more sense had I said that teen "pregnancy' was down, thus, less teens getting pregnant means less teens becoming mothers/getting abortions.

[preacherman]

[ QUOTE ]
Reloader, Im glad you waited, I really mean that , but how many people are in this forum and your the only one so far thats honestly said they waited.


[/ QUOTE ]


Sorry that I haven't posted anytime sooner, but I have been kind of busy..........but if you are looking for numbers, I waited and stood before the marriage altar pure, and I am glad that I did.

[wtnhunt]

Reloader, I find that I do agree with a lot of what you have to say. Think the only major difference in opinions we really have is in that I think a rape victim should reserve the right with counseling to abort very early on, while you do not agree.

I think on education we are maybe kind of sorta on the same page.

[horst]

Good post Reloader.Preventetive abortions to save a life Im not familiar with either.Im sure they happen occasionaly but Ive never heard of one first hand.Usually its an emegency deal where they can save either the mother or baby.

The baby I lost with no kidneys was very very much alive, so a lotta folks would have said that was wrong to.Remember, my only argument is with the folks who said its wrong under any circumstances.We actually got to hold him after he was born and he died a couple hours after birth in my arms.And technicaly this woulda been a partial birth abortion as well I suppose.

If you work with rape victims and speak for them in court thats good enough for me, i wont question you on it again.I think we actually agree on a lot more then it first appeared, were just going at it from 2 different angles.Anyway, its been a interesting post but I think Im gonna drop out of it now while everyones still on friendly terms LOL http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[johnf]

[ QUOTE ]
If its my kid...SCARE THE SNOT OUTA THEM!!! It is a scary buisness and they deserve to know the real story...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a little off the subject but I was a product of the 80's when pot smoking was pretty darn poppular among the "in" crowd. My mom alsways told me that she knew I would be around it but if I ever came home stoned, and she knew what someone stoned looked and acted like, I was a dead man.

I can honestly say I probibly had hundreds of opportunities where I could have smoked it. I never did, because I was afraid of what my mom would do.

Agressive parenting works.

[johnf]

[ QUOTE ]

The baby I lost with no kidneys was very very much alive, so a lotta folks would have said that was wrong to.Remember, my only argument is with the folks who said its wrong under any circumstances.We actually got to hold him after he was born and he died a couple hours after birth in my arms.And technicaly this woulda been a partial birth abortion as well I suppose.



[/ QUOTE ]

My sister had a similar situation to this Horst and I'll have to kindly disagree with you here about this being any kind of abortion. To me if this baby was born alive and got to spend time with it's parents then it was the tradjic end to a very short life.

It sounds like your baby died a sad but dignified death. Aborted babies are not given the luxury of loving arms.

[buckee]

Just take a moment to view these pictures and then honestly tell me that an 8 week old gestation baby, isn't a viable life.
These pictures aren't all of 8 weeks old, but you get the picture.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/buckee/AndTheySayTheyArentViableBabiesYet.jpg
http://www.prolifeaction.org/truth/eighth.jpg

At conception a baby has everything it needs to grow up as a viable human being, just like when you are born, you have everything you need to grow up to be a viable adult. The only thing lacking in both cases is love, care and nourishment.
six weeks gestation
http://www.spuc.org.uk/_inline-images/drop.jpeg