Yes it does affect you.

[johnf]

The post about Wal-Mart has split and lost it's topic, so I figured I would just start a new one.

The decision Wal-Mart made does affect us all.

Anytime you hear, see or experiece anything it changes you in some way. Take language for instance. When my daughter was 4 years old she spoke nearly perfect english. Her usage and grammer skills were better than most adults and she even correct my speech when I was wrong.

I moved to my current job when she was in the 1st grade. Our school is about 80% black and about 85% poverty. After about the first month we started the "Great Ebonics War". "I am" became "I be", We are became "We is" and so on. 3 years later we are still fighting the war with her and with ourselves. I've caugh myself telling kid "You be doin that wrong". It kills me, but I've done it. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Now back to topic. When we or our kids see things like, Ellen, Rosie, Will & Grace, "Next" (show about blind dating where gay couples are often on the show) the perception of homosexuality changes. They tell us that not only is it ok, but but that it's also natural. When these people make fun of people who don't agree with this perversion, they are telling you and your kids that not only is it natural, but that it's right.

Even our language is differnent. Do you remember the sick feeling you felt the first time you heard "alternate lifestyle"? I do. Or what about the new catch phrase "Metrosexual"? This is an attempt to take the line that has been made grey over the past 30 years and erasing it. Metrosexuality is the absence of preference and the willingness to change partners with no reguards. It is being herolded as the "New sexuality" This sort of ambiguity is a direct attack on the morality of America. This is what holywood is pushing on you and your kids every day.

What does wal-mart have to do with that?

When they decided to give discounts to homosexuals this is what it said to me.

"Not only is homosexuality normal and natural, but it's actually preferable to heterosexuality. It so preferable that we will give homosexuals a better deal so that they can make more money than the lesser heterosexuals."

Any time big buisness says this, it changes the preception of the act.

In the absence of moral leadership people will follow the loudest voice.

Fight the fight every day or you will lose.

[IL_HuNtIn_KiD]

well my response to this post is gonna be in example somewhat to a post i saw recently in the lounge...aboud the grandfather with his grandchildren...tellin them about the fight inside him and this somewhats sounds like it...only its different things fighting in thins case....whats right is fighting against what we've all been taught is wrong...and whichever one get the most power is the one that will win.


-Dan

[wtnhunt]

Sorry to hear you are raising your children exposed to conditions that are obviously having a negative effect on them John. I am afraid this country with what is becoming viewed as somewhat common and to some as acceptable is due to people just not caring anymore. This country is not the same place it was when I was growing up, and I am only 37 years old.

Personally I try to let my kids know what I view as right and wrong. I try to enforce rules and give them a strong sense of ethics and morals and give them an opportunity to be in better schools so they will have a brighter future. No fun being the bad guy as a parent, and unfortunately too many parents are not being parents anymore, but are instead being their kids buddies and allowing their kids to get away with things that you or I would have gotten our hides tanned for. Too much liberal garbage and too much from the evil organization aclu has led to these what some call rights for the wrong reasons, but just because that type of thing is out there does not mean that you and I and anyone else cannot continue to be a parent and teach your kids and continue to enforce right and wrong.

I chose to care, and my kids often don't like it, but later in life just like myself they will understand and appreciate that I wore their tails out and that I came down hard on them for doing wrong. They will if I can help it have strong morals and values and they will have opportunities in good schools, even though I am having to spend nearly 2 hours a day driving them to and from school.

[johnf]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry to hear you are raising your children exposed to conditions that are obviously having a negative effect on them John

[/ QUOTE ]

We all are, just not the same conditions. We just have to keep plugging away constantly.

[wtnhunt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry to hear you are raising your children exposed to conditions that are obviously having a negative effect on them John

[/ QUOTE ]

We all are, just not the same conditions. We just have to keep plugging away constantly.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I understand what you are saying, but not sure you are understanding exactly what I meant John.

See if I can better help you understand what I am trying to say here. My kids could ride a bus, or could go to a different school system that is closer to our home. Our land is in two districts, the city district is closer to our home, the percentage of lower income families and blacks are a bit higher than they are in the county district where our kids are going, but we are making the sacrifice and I am driving about 80 miles a day in a vehicle that gets 15 mpg, spending roughly 2 hrs a day going to and from schools.

Is it discriminating on my part to drive the distances to take my kids to the better schools? I personally don't think so when the school offers a better opportunity for them to learn, this in my opinion is just giving them more for their future, and maybe keeping them from some of those bad influences you are mentioning. If my kids had to go to the other school, we would likely move. The other school system has problems with interracial couples in the schools, crime and drug problems, and teen pregnancies in students as where the school system my kids are going to has some of the better statewide statistics in achievement scores and they just do not have the same problems in regards to teen pregnancies, crime and drug problems, and being that there are very few minorities you do not see any interracial couples. My point is that we chose to send our kids to a better school to have a more positive influence. I cannot understand why you or anyone who has the opportunity NOT to, would move your kids into a system that has less to offer and has lower achievement would do so if there was any way you could possibly help it.

[WhiskeyMan44]

I have to ask why interracial couples would be considered under the "bad influences" category?

[muggs]

danggum homo's and blacks!!

seriously though John, I have to ask. Why are you so afraid of those who are different from you?

[INHunterman]

It's not the blacks themselves, it's their immoral culture and poor language skills that's the problem.

[muggs]

LMAO...I haven't heard such gem one liners since I inadvertently attended that Hitler Youth rally...you guys kill me. (If there was a little smiley guy shaking his head in disbelief I'd put it right here --> <----

[WhiskeyMan44]

My calendar says it's 2006, but these posts say it's 1920...I think I just found a hole in the space-time continuum.

[INHunterman]

I'm just going by what I see in todays society.It used to be a black man would work hard for his family, have decent values, and still be ridiculed for being black. Now most( not all) black people are content at being in poverty and don't do a thing about it except beg for handouts and say they are "disadvantaged". Most "especially younger african americans" embrace a culture of "gangsta's and ho's", foul language and other perversions. They're not inherently bad, they're born into it. It's just a difference of cultures, right and wrong.

[buckee]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just going by what I see in todays society.It used to be a black man would work hard for his family, have decent values, and still be ridiculed for being black. Now most( not all) black people are content at being in poverty and don't do a thing about it except beg for handouts and say they are "disadvantaged". Most "especially younger african Americans" embrace a culture of "gangsta's and ho's", foul language and other perversions. They're not inherently bad, they're born into it. It's just a difference of cultures, right and wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know plenty of black people who work hard for their families, just like you and I do. The whole gangster, foul language, perversions, etc, etc, etc is not just a black issue, it is an issue that is present in every nationality in North America.

[ QUOTE ]
It's not the blacks themselves, it's their immoral culture and poor language skills that's the problem.

[/ QUOTE ]
Immoral culture???
Heck, we're all living in an immoral culture these days and I know a lot of white kids that have poor language skills too, and I know a lot of black folks who talk better than I do.
And what's wrong with interracial relationships? Man....woman ???? Heck I married a Dutch girl and I'm Irish. I guess I'm lucky we were both pretty close in colour eh....God forbid http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
I see racism starting to poke out it's ugly head in this thread. Any more and it gets zapped. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Back to Johns post. I can understand his concerns about his kids picking up on bad language...it doesn't matter where it's coming from. The one thing I've noticed about poor neighbourhoods and schools, is that it seems they don't really get the best teachers either.

[ QUOTE ]
"Not only is homosexuality normal and natural, but it's actually preferable to heterosexuality. It so preferable that we will give homosexuals a better deal so that they can make more money than the lesser heterosexuals."

[/ QUOTE ]

And if you don't like it, then your homophobic and a weirdo, and we would rather shun you, than the gay community, simply because gay is in, and you're not. ... http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[WhiskeyMan44]

Buckee, that's the best post I've seen in here in a long time.

[Strut10]

[ QUOTE ]
It's not the blacks themselves, it's their immoral culture and poor language skills that's the problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know exactly where you are from. But you describe a universal condition. And it is not a condition of race. It's a condition of the American urban welfare state. Black, white, Hispanic, etc.........that's not the determining factor. The determining factor is the message that inner city people (many of which are blacks....hence many will see it as a racial issue) have been recieving from the government since the 60's. "Stay in the city. Don't better yourself. You are a victim of the system. We will support you with government programs for the rest of your life. Vote democrat."

Again......another thread begins to jump the tracks. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[muggs]

Very well said Buckee...except for the strange spelling of "neighborhood." http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

But let's be honest with ourselves here. The real issue of the original Wal-Mart post was not the discounts...it was who was getting the discounts.

Simple vendor discounts don't inspire such phrases as "et tu Wal-Mart?" and "Walton would be rolling over in his grave."

Like I said in that post. If you guys found out vendors who supported the National Wildlife Federation were receiving discounts, would you all be up in arms because that's unfair to other vendors?

I think not.

[Strut10]

[ QUOTE ]
Like I said in that post. If you guys found out vendors who supported the National Wildlife Federation were receiving discounts, would you all be up in arms because that's unfair to other vendors?

I think not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I'm not "up in arms" over the Wal-Mart mess. I'm just putting my share of the econmy toward businesses who support less destructive lifestyles, the way I view life. If I found out that "Store X" was supporting the HSUS or Sarah Brady........they'd not see my shadow cross their doorstrep.

How old are you, Muggs?? Do you happen to remember a TV special from the 70's called "The Guns of Autumn"?? It was an anti-hunting special spearheaded by a guy named Cleveland Amory (the Ingrid Newkirk of the day). The special was sponsored by Oscar Meyer. Haven't bought an OM product in over 30 years. That's my perrogative.

The difference is this: The Oscar Meyer sponsored TV show conflicted with what I enjoy doing. Important to me..... but fairly insignificant to the world as a whole. The mainstreaming of homosexuality (complete with additional, special "rights" and privileges), drug usage, abortion, divorce, etc. is detrimental to the future of any civilized society. If you can't see it, then I am truly sorry for you. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[muggs]

[ QUOTE ]
support less destructive lifestyles

[/ QUOTE ]

Destructive? Please extrapolate as to how you came to that conclusion.

I'm 27 years old Strut. And I understand and respect the fact that you have your view of things and stand up for them. Like you said, its your perrogative.

Other people have their own perrogatives as well. That's cool too. As long as they keep them as their perrogatives and don't try to start these witch hunts which eventually lead to name calling, and the other usual stuff that comes with this sort of small-minded bigotry.

[ QUOTE ]
is detrimental to the future of any civilized society.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again. How? Gay people have been around for a lot longer than you and I, and we're here. I can't speak for you, but I'm doing pretty good for myself with them here, and I don't think they're ever gonna do anything to change that.

[ QUOTE ]
If you can't see it, then I am truly sorry for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

No need to feel sorry for me. Actually, the interactions I've had with some of you over the past week have truly made me feel enlightened. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Strut10]

[ QUOTE ]
Destructive? Please extrapolate as to how you came to that conclusion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I came to that conclusion by way of my Christian upbringing. I'm not a scripture-spouter. So I will spare you the obvious details.

[ QUOTE ]
Other people have their own perrogatives as well. That's cool too. As long as they keep them as their perrogatives......

[/ QUOTE ]

EXACTLY!!!! "Keep them as their perrogatives". But don't expect me or the government or any other entity to afford them (ANY special interest groups) any consideration over another group.

[ QUOTE ]
is detrimental to the future of any civilized society.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just as one "for instance":

A family with a (male) biological father and a (female) biological mother is the elemental building block of humanity. It's hard enough for kids to grow up in this world with morals, values and be well adjusted to society being raised in a model home environment. It's the "in" thing for same-gender "couples" to have children. Good luck with a child having two "mommies" or two "daddies" turning out to be well adjusted.

I get rather weary of hearing all the moral equivalency arguments out there today. Pure bunk, IMO.

[muggs]

[ QUOTE ]
I came to that conclusion by way of my Christian upbringing. I'm not a scripture-spouter. So I will spare you the obvious details.

[/ QUOTE ]

I get that it goes against your Christian beliefs. But how is it destructive? I mean, if two gay people get together does an A bomb go off or something? Earthquakes happen? What?

[ QUOTE ]
EXACTLY!!!! "Keep them as their perrogatives". But don't expect me or the government or any other entity to afford them (ANY special interest groups) any consideration over another group.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree, 100%.

[ QUOTE ]
A family with a (male) biological father and a (female) biological mother is the elemental building block of humanity. It's hard enough for kids to grow up in this world with morals, values and be well adjusted to society being raised in a model home environment. It's the "in" thing for same-gender "couples" to have children. Good luck with a child having two "mommies" or two "daddies" turning out to be well adjusted.

[/ QUOTE ]

I tend to agree with this too. But is a circumstance like that "detrimental to the future of any civilized society." And for agruement's sake, what if the kid turns out to be a well adjusted, open-minded individual?

I could also argue that there's plenty, and I mean plenty of people who were raised in nuclear families with a mother and father who have not turn out "well-adjusted."

[wtnhunt]

[ QUOTE ]
I have to ask why interracial couples would be considered under the "bad influences" category?

[/ QUOTE ]

John initiated the part of race in his initial post in this thread with it pertaining to how it was rubbing off on his kids.

I know this is going to come across the wrong way to some, but generally speaking around these parts the interracial thing is more common in lower income people and often those who are involved are referred to by some as "white trash", and some other terms that would not be appropriate to post here.

The topic on interracial couples has come up in here several times before and I have stated my opinions on them in the past and am not looking to get back into that argument.

[johnf]

I used that example strictly for the language issue. Poor language stems from poor education in the home. I didn't mention any moral issues with blacks, most of my favorite, best behaved students are black. But the culture that many of them live in promotes poor language skills.

[johnf]

How is homosexuality destructive?

1. Like it or not, the average homosexuals have many more partners than thier hetero counter parts. This causes the spread of more venerial desieses and aids. I saw a spcecial a few weeks ago (can't remember what channel) that said anal sex was 10 -20 times more likely to spread aids then "normal sex" This is male to male and male to female. Admit it or not homosexuals are the primary carriers and spreaders of this desiese. This affects us all by the prices medical insurance, of mediciens and out of tax dollars are funding research and development and subsidising drugs through SSI and Medicare. That causes my taxes to increase or causes less spending in things like education, defence and infrastructure (sp?).

2. Homosexuality promotes promiscuity and experimentation through thier ranks and throgh society as a whole. Studies have shown that peopel who have one partner only are much less likely to ever cheat on thier spouse, less likely to devorse and thier children are more likely to devorse. Poeple who have multiple partners are more likely to be devorsed, separated or never married with children out of wedlock.

How does that affect you and me? When parents get devorsed the kids are 3 times more likely to be on the poverty level. They will recieved welfare benifits, free lunch, and medicare. That's more tax dollars out of my pocket.

Now back to the orginal intent of the post.

Everytime we are exposed to anything (good or bad) it changes us in some way.

Homosexuality is diametrically apposed to the moral code that I live by. I will not support or anyone who does and I will avoid exposure to it for myself and my family.

[muggs]

John, buddy, I've seen stronger arguements from Saddam's defense attorney.

Come on bud, lets keep our discussion within the boundaries of reality.

Not only was that the most stereotypical, close-minded thing I've ever read, there were also some really bold claims made with absolutely no supporting evidence.

Speaking of which...I INVENTED THE QUESTION MARK!!!!

http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[muggs]

I forgot to mention...don't forget how they caused that whole Katrina fiasco, and weren't they responsible for 9/11?

And then there's that whole black plaque thing from way back when...pretty sure that was them.

Lee Harvey Oswald...I schoff at that notion...it was the queers!!

In all seiousness, the only thing I really blame the gay community for was that show Will and Grace...that my friends, was a true disaster. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Andrea]

[ QUOTE ]

In all seriousness, the only thing I really blame the gay community for was that show Will and Grace...that my friends, was a true disaster. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey now, when that first started it was pretty funny. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[johnf]

You're obviously blind to the truth, further discussion will be fruitless.

[OJR]

[ QUOTE ]
You're obviously blind to the truth, further discussion will be fruitless.

[/ QUOTE ]

Promise??? http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[muggs]

[ QUOTE ]
You're obviously blind to the truth, further discussion will be fruitless.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, you're right, I'm the blind one. Anyway, haven't your posts been fruitless up to this point. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

the only thing you've really accomplished with your points is exposing yourself as judgemental and hateful...ironically enough, those are two things the Christian doctrine constantly preaches against.

I'm not sure you'll be able to think unbiasly enough to see it this way, but from my vantage point, that's a real head scratcher. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[INHunterman]

Since when is being against something immoral being hateful? I'm opposed to what homosexuals do but I don't hate them. All anyone needs to do is show the gays the error of their ways and correct them. Shunning them doesn't accomplish anything.

[muggs]

[ QUOTE ]
All anyone needs to do is show the gays the error of their ways and correct them.

[/ QUOTE ]

you ever think people just might be happy with who they are and just might not want you trying to "help" them? http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[WhiskeyMan44]

How do we show them the error of their ways? Hold protests with large signs that say "Homosexuality is a sin" and cause a huge confrontation ending in only resentment from both sides? I dont wanna pull out the "let he who has not sinned cast the first stone" line, but I'll do it.

[SUGARKAHNE]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're obviously blind to the truth, further discussion will be fruitless.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, you're right, I'm the blind one. Anyway, haven't your posts been fruitless up to this point. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

the only thing you've really accomplished with your points is exposing yourself as judgemental and hateful...ironically enough, those are two things the Christian doctrine constantly preaches against.

I'm not sure you'll be able to think unbiasly enough to see it this way, but from my vantage point, that's a real head scratcher. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
The only one who seems to be hateful and judgemental is you, the way you're attacking everyone who doesn't agree with you. I think everyone should at least have the decency to respond respectfully in the discussion and not try to run anyone else down just because they have convictions and are willing to stand up for them. JMO.

[muggs]

[ QUOTE ]
The only one who seems to be hateful and judgemental is you, the way you're attacking everyone who doesn't agree with you. I think everyone should at least have the decency to respond respectfully in the discussion and not try to run anyone else down just because they have convictions and are willing to stand up for them. JMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not the one creating these posts, comparing gay people to necrophiliacs and blaming them for for how much my health insurance is etc...etc...

Right then are there respect went right out the window. Stand up for your convictions and I'll back you up. Use your convictions to view yourself superior to others and I'll run you down...everyday of the week.

[Strut10]

[ QUOTE ]
I get that it goes against your Christian beliefs. But how is it destructive? I mean, if two gay people get together does an A bomb go off or something? Earthquakes happen? What?

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting that you should mention "A bomb". Ever hear of Acquired Immunodeficiency Syndrome? Pretty destructive stuff on a case-by-case level........but also extremely destructive to an economy. The burden that this single behavior-induced disease puts on the healthcare and healthcare insurance industries is staggering. If you still don't think it affects you............ http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[johnf]

[ QUOTE ]
yeah, you're right, I'm the blind one. Anyway, haven't your posts been fruitless up to this point.



[/ QUOTE ]

We do agree on that point. While my points are valid your obvious love of the world's moral ambiguity seem to be stronger at this point. Time for me to brush my feet off and move on.

I'll see you in another room where we can be constructive together.

jf

[Elwood]

MUGGS "Right then are there respect went right out the window. Stand up for your convictions and I'll back you up. Use your convictions to view yourself superior to others and I'll run you down...everyday of the week."

Are people not standing up for their convictions and beliefs on this thread? You are not supporting them, you are standing up for your cowardly stance on nothing, accept convicting people for standing up for their morals. You will not stand against anything that does not affect you and fail to see just how much the wrongs in society are affecting you. This is finacially and morally depreciating you as a person. People have tried to open your eyes and clue you in but you remain close minded to things that do not affect you at this moment. Wonder how much you mind will change when you get slapped in the face by the life styles that you are turning a blind eye too. Respect for you is almost out the window.

[WaCoyote]

[ QUOTE ]
"Not only is homosexuality normal and natural, but it's actually preferable to heterosexuality. It so preferable that we will give homosexuals a better deal so that they can make more money than the lesser heterosexuals."


[/ QUOTE ]

Very well said. Interesting way to look at it! Very good point!!!

Pretty good points on both sides. I think I'll stay out of this one this time though. Last time I tried to explain something I got called anti christian for trying to make a point. Kind of left a sour taste in my mouth. Sorry Muggs, gonna have to leave you out in the cold this time, besides there are far more important things that exist in this world which are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more important than whether some guy is gay or not. War in Iraq, Korea has Nukes, Iran wants Nukes, possible terrorist nukes in the states, school shootings, pedophile predators, drugs, gangs.......... I'm sure there's a couple more. But I can't remember now because after reading these posts I'm beginning to think that someone being gay threatens me more than any other modern day issue. Geuss I didn't stay out of it. Sorry.

[wtnhunt]

[ QUOTE ]
Everytime we are exposed to anything (good or bad) it changes us in some way.


[/ QUOTE ]

Only if YOU allow it to change you.

[OJR]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Everytime we are exposed to anything (good or bad) it changes us in some way.


[/ QUOTE ]

Only if YOU allow it to change you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with that 100%! Only YOU can control it and if you can't, then I feel sorry for you!!

[johnf]

But if we don't control it then it does change our perspective. Children and young adults are and growing up in an environment where the media is raising them, and if we as parents don't give them a moral road to walk and actively keep them on it, they will find the path that the world so boldly set out for them.

[wtnhunt]

[ QUOTE ]
Children and young adults are and growing up in an environment where the media is raising them,

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, but the media has nothing directly to do with my childrens raising. I will continue to raise my children by my own morals and values. If your kid is in front of a tv and learning from there instead of from you, then you are not being a parent.

Unfortunatley though in one sense you are right John. Many people out there are letting televisions and video games raise their kids.

[muggs]

LMAO...man, I'm not sure where to start. I could go on and on, but I'll just summarize what I've learned by reading the latest posts.

1. Elwood, don't quote me unless you actually read and comprehend what I wrote.

2. Strut, now only gay people get AIDS? I guess someone should tell that to the people living in Africa. Actually, I'm sure some of you have already condemned them long ago due to their "immoral culture" or some other contrived label you chose.

3. You guys want to blame everyone else for your inability to parent.

4. And the most important thing I've learn in the last few minutes....drum roll here fellas....my line of thinking is about 100-150 years more advanced than most of the people who've been trying to debate me.

And on that note, I'll leave you all to your own devices...as scary as that may be.

Oh yeah, one more thing. If a guy named Jim Jones asked you if you're thirsty...don't drink the Kool-Aid. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[buckee]

For what it's worth, I agree with everything John has said. It does effect us, our children, and our children's children, etc, whether we want it to or not.

[OJR]

[ QUOTE ]
For what it's worth, I agree with everything John has said. It does effect us, our children, and our children's children, etc, whether we want it to or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Buckee & John, you have to be kidding me! Don't you have any control over your lives??? http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Man, I sure don't let these things "control" what I do or how I feel! I guess I have too much "control" over my life as to what I want and when I want it! http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[buckee]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For what it's worth, I agree with everything John has said. It does effect us, our children, and our children's children, etc, whether we want it to or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Buckee & John, you have to be kidding me! Don't you have any control over your lives??? http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Man, I sure don't let these things "control" what I do or how I feel! I guess I have too much "control" over my life as to what I want and when I want it! http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

If I knew what you were talking about..I'd try to answer ya ...LOL

[Strut10]

[ QUOTE ]
2. Strut, now only gay people get AIDS?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. But Wal-Mart has yet to start giving preferential treatment to intravenous drug users....so far as I know.

[ QUOTE ]
4. And the most important thing I've learn in the last few minutes....drum roll here fellas....my line of thinking is about 100-150 years more advanced than most of the people who've been trying to debate me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes modernity and "progression" are not preferrable to good old-fashioned Christian morals.

I don't like kool-Aid, anyways. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[johnf]

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I don't like kool-Aid, anyways. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

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I like the blue kool-aid. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[johnf]

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Buckee & John, you have to be kidding me! Don't you have any control over your lives??? http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Man, I sure don't let these things "control" what I do or how I feel! I guess I have too much "control" over my life as to what I want and when I want it! http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

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Ok let's change the subject to pornography. If I've never purchased it watched it or seen it I would have a certain perspective on women and sex. If I started watching and reading it every day my perspective would change. Even if I tried to not let it affect me, it would. If I saw a woman who might resemble one in a magizine or on a video my mind would probibly wander back to those images and I would see that woman in a different perspective. She would be harmed because my image of her would be one of degridation and shame or one of desire and imorality rather than of the respect that I should have of her. She may not realize it or ever be affected by it, but the harm would be there.

It's the same with everything else. That's why brainwashing works. If you see the image enough, it changes your reality.

"THERE ARE 3 LLIGHTS!" http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[OJR]

Well Buckee, if you don't understand, I just don't let things like this affect me or control who and what I am!

JohnF, when I read what you are saying, you must not have too much "CONTROL" over your own mind if things like that are going to be a factor down the road from looking a picture, a video or someone dancing in front of you!

I don't let any of this crap affect or control me! If I see it and if I don't like it, I forget it!!

It seems you two are real easily influenced.

[heathcoerracin]

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I don't like kool-Aid, anyways. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

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I like the blue kool-aid. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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that made me laugh!!!!

[heathcoerracin]

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I'm just going by what I see in todays society.It used to be a black man would work hard for his family, have decent values, and still be ridiculed for being black. Now most( not all) black people are content at being in poverty and don't do a thing about it except beg for handouts and say they are "disadvantaged". Most "especially younger african americans" embrace a culture of "gangsta's and ho's", foul language and other perversions. They're not inherently bad, they're born into it. It's just a difference of cultures, right and wrong.

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i agree 100%!!!!! I see it every day in the public school! AS they say..the apple dont fall far from the tree

[BowJoe]

The basic surmise of what I think is this: Life isn't fair. Fair is where you buy a quilt and pet rocks. If the world were perfect, gay men and women would be straight, pedaphiles would only like adults, the light would always be green just for you and St. Judes would never be needed. Unfortunately it's an unfair world and we can't always get what we want. I don't approve of the gay way because nature itself dictates that it's wrong. I don't need to detail why it's true but it's true. If you don't believe me then ask your mommy and daddy. I think that judging a person based more on their own individual actions and personality is more important than a broad paint brush coating. That being said, there is a thin line between fact and fiction in what somebody says is typical about a certain race, sexuality and devious behavior. I grew up hearing the same racist remarks about minorities and in the back of my mind I thought they were all false and just couldn't be true. Now however, I believe their is some truth to some commonalities. As far as personality goes, most of the gay people I work with are very polite and not at all straightbashers and constantly looking for the next guy or girl to be a friend to. I don't however see why anybody has to talk or walk a certain way just because they are gay. Always baffles me. As far as perverts and child molestors go, I guess the Catholic church has proven my point better than I could even try. It goes to show that you don't know what's on the inside of a book unless you open it up and read all the dirty little secrets. I don't care how a person sins as long as it doesn't harm anyone else in any way. Just my oppinion

[wtnhunt]

I thought I was going to back out of this debate, but it has gotten kind of humorous. I certainly don't understand this idea of having no control over your own mind, honestly that makes me shake my head.

Like mentioned above the deals with the churches, where do they get the notions to take these evil actions? John, you yourself have several times come right out and blasted the Catholic church, even sent me a pm about another member here and how you felt he was ticked at you or had something against you because of your comments about the catholic church. Do the priests watch porn John, what outside factors have conditioned them to molest little boys and engage in homosexuality. you really got me curious on this one? Oh I know maybe it is all wal marts fault or the media, give me a freaking break. Of all the people that should be surrounded by good influences, you would think it would be those who are self proclaimed to be so close to God who would likely be more distant from this type of activity, so why then is it that we see this type of things happening in these places?

Anyone can lie blame, to say you have no control is a LAME EXCUSE. We all have within us the ability to chose right and wrong as we know it. Problem is in todays society many kids are not being taught right and wrong and too many people are getting away from God or removing God and in the process leaving behind what they themselves learned as right and wrong. The world is changing, but we still have the right to make our own choices.

[WaCoyote]

BowJoe, Thats EXACTLY the way I see it. Very well put.

[johnf]

I'm not saying that we don't have control over our minds, what I am saying is that if we don't actively keep ourselves on the right track then outside influences will change our perspective.

In world war I less than 10% of the soldiers fired upon the enemy when they were fired on. They practiced shooting at a square target and were good shots. After world war I they changed the target into a roughly human shaped silouete. When put into the same situation the men in WWII did not hesitate to fire. The only difference in their training was the shape of thier target.

Socialogist base the difference on the fact that hundred of rounds fired at a man shaped target made it easier to shoot at a man.

That's my point

[WaCoyote]

Your statement is false. The shape of the target was not the reason and the improvement was still not that great in WW2. There are a whole host of contributing factors so this is not a accurate analogy. Everybody didn't start firing until Korea and vietnam, Then in vietnam they fired too much. Sorry you'll have to come up with a better one than that. I've been there done that, and read numerous studies during my stint.

[johnf]

That was according to a military study I saw on the history chanel. I may have gotten the wrong wars, but the results are the same.



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There are a whole host of contributing factors

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What are the other contributing factors?

If there are other contributing factors then they are other outside influence that made it easier for one man to kill another. Which means the more outside influence there are the more likely it is to change the perspective. I think if anything, that strengthens my argument.

[wtnhunt]

John you still fail to answer, if it is primarily outside influences that cause people to deviate from good as you are suggesting, on just why exactly it is that there are so many problems with corruption and pedophiles(including homosexuality) in the churches where the influences you are suggesting are so bad, are most likely in many cases in limited existences if not nil.

I may be wrong, but would be willing to bet that priests taking advantage of young boys has been occurring since well before the media and tv programs became an issue. There in you have homosexuality and pedophile behaviour occurring without this outside influence you are suggesting is to blame for why the world is the way it is today.

Personally I think the problems in the world today are more likely a result of people being more stressed and society in general having a completely different perspective or attitude than they did years ago, they just don't care like they used to.

[johnf]

I never said it was primarily outside influences. All man has a sin nature. We are all naturally selfish creatures. We make decisions every day that dictate what kind of person we are going to be. When we subject ourselves to outside influence that are contrary to what we know is right they affect our perseption. We must then avoind things that are contrary to what we believe to be right and surround ourselves with things that conferm or strenghthen us.

We all battle within to keep sin out of our lives as much as we are able. Why then would we subject ourselves or our kids to something that is going to push them/us toward it?

[wtnhunt]

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Why then would we subject ourselves or our kids to something that is going to push them/us toward it

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Seems I asked you this very question in a different manner at the beginning of this post John.

I am not saying that outside influences will not change some people, some people are truly mindless, look at the peta followers, great example. I do still totally disagree with you though about this idea that they alter us all.

Only way something can change you or your views is if you let it. Furthermore, I will even go so far as to say that some people in this world are so closed minded that they will not be changed by anything.

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I never said it was primarily outside influences.

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You sure?

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Anytime you hear, see or experiece anything it changes you in some way. Take language for instance. When my daughter was 4 years old she spoke nearly perfect english. Her usage and grammer skills were better than most adults and she even correct my speech when I was wrong.

I moved to my current job when she was in the 1st grade. Our school is about 80% black and about 85% poverty. After about the first month we started the "Great Ebonics War". "I am" became "I be", We are became "We is" and so on. 3 years later we are still fighting the war with her and with ourselves. I've caugh myself telling kid "You be doin that wrong". It kills me, but I've done it.

Now back to topic. When we or our kids see things like, Ellen, Rosie, Will & Grace, "Next" (show about blind dating where gay couples are often on the show) the perception of homosexuality changes. They tell us that not only is it ok, but but that it's also natural. When these people make fun of people who don't agree with this perversion, they are telling you and your kids that not only is it natural, but that it's right.

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Guess I somehow misinterpreted your words here John? Thought what you were saying there was that these influences changed us all.

If YOU allow your kids to watch such shows as will and grace and do not at the very least talk with them about these shows, then it is not wonder you are looking for excuses to why they will fail.

[johnf]

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Only way something can change you or your views is if you let it.

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Exactly what I'm saying here. The soldier in the field wants to be a good soldier, he wants to fight and live, therefore he doesn't fight the emotional changes that training gives him.

I don't want my kids to be influenced by bad tv programming, so I don't let them watch it. I don't want my daughter to use poor grammer or bad language, so I'm on her about it constantly. I don't want to have a low opinion on women so I avoid things that would lower it ect.......

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Thought what you were saying there was that these influences changed us all.

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They change us if we allow them to. If we don't fight thier affects, they will change us.

If you never washed your hands what would they look like.

[WaCoyote]

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If YOU allow your kids to watch such shows as will and grace and do not at the very least talk with them about these shows, then it is not wonder you are looking for excuses to why they will fail.


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Good point.

Other factors? 1. Dehuminizimg the enemy. People were more likely to kill a Japanese soldier than a German due to race and the fact that they snuck us on pearl harbor. In fact more soldiers WANTED to kill Japanese Vs. Germans. 2. Soldiers were actually scared to use up ammo and run out. Now with the M16 you can physically carry much more ammo. Thats why in vietnam they shot too much and the military came up with the 3 round burst on the modern 16's. 3. WW1 was a different type of war you shot volleys at an aimed target. In WW2, Korea, Vietnam, and present you lay down suppressing fire to make the enemy stay low so you can then close in and over run. Therefor everybody shoots. Yes Yes I know we still aim but thats not the sole idea behind modern warfare. 4. Just the ammount of training is more than the average WW1 or WW2 soldier. Those were about numbers. They gave a city boy a weapon, had him shoot it, then sent him off to fight. Now everybody goes through extensive traing so you feel comfortable using a given weapon. In fact (numbers arent totally accurate) 1/2 or so of WW2 vets did any shooting. Only about 1/2 of them did the killing. They were the "good shots". Similar to fighter pilots when guns were used to bring down a plane. Do you need more??

Maybe this strengthens your arguement, maybe not but my point was not to debate a particular point you were trying to make. It was only to let you know that a sillouette target vs. a square target is not the reason people were more willing to take a life in one war over another.