Southern Pride

[SUGARKAHNE]

I was just reading an article in the newspaper about a woman in South Carolina who went to the Coastal Carolina Fair. Apparently she saw a vendor there selling Dixie T-shirts and she didn't like it. She bought one that said "Confederately Correct Civil Rights for Southern Whites" and stood outside the gates, asking everyone who walked by what they thought about it, refusing to leave until she was arrested. She said that the shirt promotes hate, is offensive, and is inappropriate for children. In her words: "The more people generalize, the more people hate, the more divided the cultures are going to be. It is so ugly here in the South."
This just makes my blood boil. When other cultures are being discussed, everyone's all for free speech and diversity, but let someone mention southern heritage, and immediately someone tries to shut you up, saying you're "hateful". I am not a bit prejudiced and I don't hate anyone, but I proudly wear my southern shirts and fly my Confederate flag, along with the American flag. It's an important part of history, and I don't see why someone would make such a big deal and say it's "inappropriate for children" when the only ones being hateful are themselves. Honestly! http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Yellowhammer]

I know what you mean, I get so sick of hearing about this stuff.

[OJR]

I agree and this pedellum has really swung way to far over! The problem is that it is not going to be corrected as long as we have this stupid "politically correct" attitude among us!

[wtnhunt]

Sad how things are twisted around. Really this problem is only getting worse.

[Newarcher]

Sorry, I am from the South and I disagree with the Rebel flag. While I certainly agree that it has its place in history, that place should be a museum and not flying over a State Capitol.

Inherently, the flag is not racist but I will guarantee you that 90% of the people who wear it aren't wearing it to further history. They aren't wearing it because they feel that State's rights was the real issue behind the Civil War. They wear it to be a thumb in the eye to blacks. Usually, I see them on jacked up four wheel drives with young, stupid white kids in them....I know they are stupid just by looking at them and the way they act.

On my way home, there is a patch of land where several people dress in civil war outfits occasionally and wave the Rebel flag.

I have nothing against the flag nor the history it represents...moreover what it has become to represent thanks to a bunch of miscreants.

New

[gabuckbuster03]

i agree with ya kahne i tired of all this crap to

[wtnhunt]

[ QUOTE ]
They aren't wearing it because they feel that State's rights was the real issue behind the Civil War. They wear it to be a thumb in the eye to blacks. Usually, I see them on jacked up four wheel drives with young, stupid white kids in them....I know they are stupid just by looking at them and the way they act.



[/ QUOTE ]

The only reason for people to take the flag and what they think it symbolizes New is for another reason to cry, and I have to strongly disagree with what you say here. I think your generalization here is way too broad an assumption, not everyone wearing or flying a rebel flag is white supremacist. Come on, isn't there enough crying in the world today. It is a flag, get over it, have seen things at work where some people complained over a shirt someone wore. So happens the person was in a position and on casual Friday elected to wear a shirt that had a confederate flag. The persons who complained said it was racist????

Give me a freaking break, how is a shirt with a flag racist unless the person wearing it is making it into a racist issue? It is the mentality just like your assumption here that leads way to giving in to just what they want. Removal of anything and everything you don't like leading way to opprresing whites. They have learned that if you don't get your way, cry about it and eventually you will get your way. Really is sad to see where this country is headed.

[Newarcher]

No, it isn't an assumption or a too broad generalization.

I sincerely doubt that here in GA all the 16-20'ish kids I see running around with huge rebel flags flying in the stake pockets of their 4x4 aren't waving it because they think that the South was right to demand state's rights. They are doing it to be inflammatory and are using it as an instrument of hate.

For years that flag has been flown by the KKK and used as an insturment of hate. There is no denying that....comeon.

There is a large faction in GA that tried to get the rebel flag as a ballod option for the new GA flag. Not all of them are racists....some are historians and recognize the flag for what it is, history. But most want the flag kept because they feel the blacks that consider it inflammatory are winning their way.

I don't feel the slightest bit oppressed because a symbol of hatred is gone. The flag itself isn't an instrument of hate, it was the flag of the day during the civil war. It is how redneck racists have used that flag since that got it removed. Had they not misused the flag of GA as an instrument of hatred, it would be flying today.

As for the shirt you mention, I suppose the person was black that complained. Perhaps that black person made an assumption about the wearer and probably was RIGHT. But because of the misuse of the flag, it is considered an instrument of hate. Don't blame the messenger, blame the idiots that created it all.

New

[wtnhunt]

The woman I was referring to who was wearing the shirt likes Larry the cable guy, likes redneck jokes and Foxworthy, and thought this particular shirt was cool. She is an educated person, a director of nursing. Yes, it started with one black person and then some more blacks complained and said they would file a complaint if she did not change or cover it up, because they felt it was offending them. Pretty sad that they can complain about being offended by things like this and due to the aclu and other ignorant non sense out there they can in a sense rule us on things so petty.

New, I grew up in the south buddy, and spent a little time in Macon as well. I know a little about the kkk and about what you are saying here, but simply think that some of those people flying the flag are not trying to stir up more hatred like you are suggesting. There was a kid I went to school with in Ocoee and Winter Garden Florida whose father was pretty big in the kkk, they were in my opinion a bit different, and they did seem to me to be filled with hate. I also knew kids who flew the confederate flag I went to school with on 4wd trucks who were not in any way affiliated with the kkk and did not have anywhere even remotely close to the same views, nor did they ever express any sentiment of hatred towards blacks.

You basically are saying that the kids flying the flag are doing it for no reason other than that they hate blacks or to stir up problems, that is like saying the Mexicans who fly their flags here hate America, that is whether you accept it or not a generalization. I would not make the assumption that just because the kids are flying the flag because they hate blacks, that is stereotyping. Kids are kids, maybe some think it is cool and really dont have any ill feeling towards blacks whatsoever. Think you are making more out of this than is there.

Racism in this country today in my opinion is quite possibly worse than it was 20-25 years ago, but it is not extending from the same direction as it did back then. I do not think racism as it was 20 years ago when it was most commonly linked to whites being racist against blacks is as common now as is racism from the other direction if that makes sense.

[Newarcher]

Wtn,

I have seen the stars and bars on some hunting shirts and shirts about Southern hunting, etc. I don't have a problem with something innoculous like that.

But name me one reason for a punk kid to go tearing down the road with an 8x5 rebel flag flying behind their trucks. Sure, they are pain in the butt kids. Agreed. But what is the point? To stir a rousing debate about history? Come on, no offense, but the clear insinuation is that they are doing it to be offensive in a racist way. Pure and simple. If not, explain one reason why a punk kid would feel it important to fly it...other than the "the south was right and black should still be slaves argument".

If the shirt was part of Larry the Cable guy or a foxworthy shirt, fine. Otherwisse, to the untrained eye she looks like a racist. Probably is one. If she feels it appropriate to wear such a shirt to a mixed place knowing how some people feel about it, she probably deserves the title. Wear it on your own time, so be it.

Are we having fun yet? http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

New

[wtnhunt]

[ QUOTE ]
to the untrained eye she looks like a racist. Probably is one

[/ QUOTE ]

See this is exactly where we have the problem New. This post started with what? A shirt. People want to make assumptions and think because they see something that they know what this person is all about. You are wearing a shirt or cap with a rebel flag, you MUST be a racist. Give me a break buddy. Since when do we need to censor what we wear so long as it does not have vulgar language to not offend a group of people already just looking to have a reason to cry. You are giving in to taking away our rights too easily here buddy. From seeing the emotion you have put into your political posts and your concerns with our rights I don't see why you don't seem to understand that the crying and whining crap is leading way to removal of our rights all around us. This right here is one in the same even if the intent of the kids is to stir on hatred, that is still a right we are free to under our constitution. Last I understood we do still a right to freedom of expression in this country unless I am wrong. It is not about the punk kids flying the flags so much as it is about preserving our rights to freedom of expression, maybe you are right and they are flying the flag for the wrong reasons and should not be, but do we really want to remove more rights so we are not offending someone? Giving in and letting all the little and large groups continue to peck away is just not very wise in my opinion and a growing part of what is wrong with this country today.

[Newarcher]

I am not advocating a law against wearing it.

I stand by my point that decorum is the word of the day. You don't wear a rebel flag on casual day to a place where blacks work. Given the history I have stated, I believe wearing it says someting about you and your intentions for wearing it. If you want to wear it on your own time, fine, but know that people are going to assume things about you and your reasons for wearing it.

There are assumptions made about you every day. Fat? you eat too much. Wearing camo? redneck. With certain actions comes assumptions.

Call it heritage....call it history.....call it tradition. But in the end it is about most people feeling sore about the blacks getting their way and having the flag taken down.

Gee, the swastikka is just 6 lines, why not fly it?

New

[Andrea]

Having pride in your southern heritage is one thing. But I know EXACTLY what New is talking about. There are way too many folks down here that wave that flag for one reason and one reason only.... to incite hatred towards black people. Yes, there are a handful that do not.


When I was in high school there were several boys who thought it would be adventurous to place a HUGE Rebel flag in the back of their pickup truck and go barreling through the black neighborhoods with Hank's " If the South Woulda Won" blaring from their speakers.

Southern pride? I don't think so.

If they want to fly that flag over the capitol and other places, fine. I don't have a problem with that. Placing that flag in it's proper place is great. But placing that flag on t-shirts with racist slogans is downright rude.

Basically it's all in how the flag is being used.

[Newarcher]

Here is the quandry.

There are certain things you can do in life that aren't inherently wrong, illegal, or controversial in and of themseslves. However, the assumption by those people seeing you do them is widely known as X.

If you then go out and do these things knowing what the assumption about you is going to be, then don't you subscribe to that belief of what you are by doing it?

The last time I saw a rebel flag bumper sticker it had some dumb saying on it like 'these colors don't run'. Beside that, there was a sticker that said "All things considered, I would have picked my own cotton". I'll leave that one right there.

I have plenty of souther pride. Being southern means hunting and fishing, apple pies and mama. Some people relish being southern because of our history and a desire to go back there. Those are the flag wavers, IMHO.

New

[MUDRUNNER]

I don't post often in this room,but thought I would put in my 2 cents.

I understand both sides of this debate.I agree with Wtnhunt that there is still a lot of racism in this country,but it has turned 180 degrees.Certain things are to the point now that that blacks can get away with more and get by with less.Governmant funded projects are one example....a certain percentage of these projects are required by law to be handed to african american contractors,regardless of their quality of work or the price of a job.If you have a white man and a black man bid on a certain job,the odds are stacked against the white man getting the job.

I can also see News point,that these kids are just out to raise a rucous and cause trouble.If thats the case they are not doing anything but drawing attention from the law and I gaurantee they will be caught doing something wrong eventually and will realize that they brought it on themselves for acting like meatheads.

As far as the confederate flag goes,I see no problem with it.I drove a jacked up 4X4 in high school that had a confederate bumper sticker,but I'm not racist at all.For us it was a symbol that we were country boys who hunted,fished,worked hard and played hard,and nothing more.

[wtnhunt]

[ QUOTE ]
For us it was a symbol that we were country boys who hunted,fished,worked hard and played hard,and nothing more.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you, many people see the confederate flag that same way and do not have racist ideals or thoughts whatsoever associated with it, but many people just don't WANT to understand that, but instead they have their own pre-judgemental views and assume what ever they want. Hey they have that right, more power to them.

I am not saying nor have I anywhere in this thread said that I agree with flying the flag and irritating or instigating problems in a racist manner. Personally I don't agree with that type of thing either and while it in the instances that New is suggesting may very well egg on more hatred, I don't think there are any laws against what New is suggesting these kids are doing so long as they are not partaking in other illegal activities and leading into rioting or domestic violence.

My entire point in this is that stereotyping and EXPECTING people to change what they believe or expect them to not display what they wish in and not allow them to express their freedoms whether it be in the work place on casual Friday, by flying a rebel flag at the local mudpit, or to attempt to stop someone from selling shirts you think are wrong because they offend you is wrong and only leads way to the removal of our rights. So where does it stop, whine and complain about the flag wavers, eventually enough complaining is done and enough people like you say there is no reason for them to be able to display this in this manner, you are pecking away at our constitutional rights whether you like it or not. Just like the ignorant lawsuits that some moron in California did not believe in God and so did not want his daughter to hear the pledge. These types of removals start somewhere New and eventually do end in removing our rights. There are plenty of people out there to support these types of causes or think ho hum thoughts about things like this, that think oh it doesn't matter it doesn't affect me, but somewhere down the line as these rights keep being pecked away at it will end up effecting you and me and our children. Who ever would have thought 25 years ago that our 10 commandments would be removed from courtrooms and that the pledge would be banned from schools and that prayer would be removed from schools. This is the removal of our freedoms. This post started about a shirt and got turned into a post about thoughts on racism and how our freedoms are in fact being violated.

With the liberal judges and today's society, problems like this will only get worse, and giving into something as simple as this is violating the constitutional rights of those who are expressing their freedoms, and the more it is violated, the more easily it will be violated in the future.

btw, I don't own a confederate flag never have and have never considered flying one.

[SUGARKAHNE]

"This is the removal of our freedoms. This post started about a shirt and got turned into a post about thoughts on racism and how our freedoms are in fact being violated."

This was exactly the point I was trying to make with this post. I simply don't want to be told that I don't have the right to wear the shirt I want to wear and can't fly my flag simply because someone thinks someone else might get offended. It's not like the shirt said "I hate blacks" or anything. I, as I said before, am definitely not racist, I have some black friends who are great people. Actually the woman who complained about the shirt was white.

[Steven]

You do have a right to wear a shirt and fly a flag. But, under the same first amendment, others have a right to have and express an opinion about said shirt and flag.

The first amendment doesn't disscriminate. If you want to express yourself in public, you can't copmplain when someone else does the same.


[ QUOTE ]
It's not like the shirt said "I hate blacks" or anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

While you're not saying that, the implication made by the shirt is. There is a long history of oppression indelibly linked to the confederate flag, whether you want to admit it or not. Look at the former Georgia flag. There has been alot of fighting since it was changed a few years ago, claiming 'heritage, not hate'. What's not usually mentioned is that the flag was changed in 1956 to protest the civil rights movement, more specifically, Brown vs. Board of Education. People can say whatever they want, but facts are facts.

The assumption that will be made by most people is the confederate flag is that it's a social statement rather than a fashion statement. By choosing to wear it, you are accepting that assumption and welcoming comments.

'For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction' isn't only a physical law, it applies to all aspects of life.

[popgun]

I’m surprised by some of the replies.

When the Mexicans hold a rally in South Texas and wave their “Home of Their Heritage Flags” you are booing and hissing because, they want to be Americans but are waving the Mexican Flag.

Do you remember what the meaning of “seceding from the Union” means?
The southern states pulled out, or withdrew from the Union, or the “United States of America”, and formed their own separate country.
The South had their own President and vice-president, and wanted to have their own laws and Constitution.

The South lost, so get over it.

The ‘stars and bars’ was a flag of a revolutionary government that did not succeed in this attempted military coup.

Some of you are expressing the need to fly the flag of a revolutionary force that lost.

Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee lost their American Citizenship, and only regained it posthumously, many years later. They were no longer citizens of the United States of America.
The soldiers of the South also lost theirs, but their citizenship was restored when the south was reunited.
Is this really what you want to remember, remind, or teach to others?
Are you trying to remind the entire nation that thousands of people died on both sides, for a lost cause?

“America….Love it or leave it”….. “United We Stand”….
You have heard all the quotes, but here is one more:
“There is only one Flag of the United States of America.”

Any other flag should be folded, and stored. (Except for State Flags that represent the States of the United States of America.)
….popgun

[Newarcher]

Let me be very clear....wearing a flag shirt or having a bumper sticker doesn't make you a racist.

It makes everyone (almost anyway) assume you are.

The compromise I reached is a 5" browning buckmark with the American flag pattern. Nice and shiney. That lets everyone know I am a hunter and a patriot!

Y'all have a good night, ya hear? http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

New

[Mathews4]

im not predjudice in any way, shape, or form. i have many black friends, some of which im tryin to get into huntin. and when it comes to america i am a true patriot, but im also a true patriot to something else...my Heritage. so when i do wear a southern pride shirt with a confederate flag on the back my black friends dont mind it a bit because they know it's "HERITAGE NOT HATE". the south may have lost way before our time, but i will never in my life forget where i came from and who i am today because of it. now i know all about the KKK and all the other idots that wave the stars and bars as a sign of hate, but before someone judges me they should take the time to get to know me first or they're just gonna make a fool of themselves. im not meaning this as a slap in the face to anyone on or off of the forums, but just my 2 cents.

[wtnhunt]

Popgun, I have to disagree with you here. Usually I will agree with you, but lets be serious. You are comparing those who are wearing a shirt to those who are often here ILLEGALY who are in many cases BURNING or in some other way desecrating the American flag while they are putting up their own. This post was not initially about anyone terrorizing blacks or rioting or trying to stir up hatred, it was about a shirt. As far as any Mexicans who are here legally, if they wish to fly a Mexican flag, I don't have a problem with it or them, that is their right. They do it, I don't hate them for it.

So why are so many so quick to make assumptions when the tables are turned? The thing that keeps coming up from New and those others here that are speaking against this that people will ASSuME. Well everyone has a right to assume what they want, no doubt about that. Should someone have to give up or hold back their opinions for fears that someone will make assumptions of them under what is nothing more than stereotyping or generalizing. Is that not any better than displaying prejudice?

[ QUOTE ]
The first amendment doesn't disscriminate. If you want to express yourself in public, you can't copmplain when someone else does the same

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very true, and everyone has the right to ignore what they do not want to hear or see, but just look at what has happened here in the past 5-10 years.

[SUGARKAHNE]

[ QUOTE ]
I’m surprised by some of the replies.

When the Mexicans hold a rally in South Texas and wave their “Home of Their Heritage Flags” you are booing and hissing because, they want to be Americans but are waving the Mexican Flag.

Do you remember what the meaning of “seceding from the Union” means?
The southern states pulled out, or withdrew from the Union, or the “United States of America”, and formed their own separate country.
The South had their own President and vice-president, and wanted to have their own laws and Constitution.

The South lost, so get over it.

The ‘stars and bars’ was a flag of a revolutionary government that did not succeed in this attempted military coup.

Some of you are expressing the need to fly the flag of a revolutionary force that lost.

Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee lost their American Citizenship, and only regained it posthumously, many years later. They were no longer citizens of the United States of America.
The soldiers of the South also lost theirs, but their citizenship was restored when the south was reunited.
Is this really what you want to remember, remind, or teach to others?
Are you trying to remind the entire nation that thousands of people died on both sides, for a lost cause?

“America….Love it or leave it”….. “United We Stand”….
You have heard all the quotes, but here is one more:
“There is only one Flag of the United States of America.”

Any other flag should be folded, and stored. (Except for State Flags that represent the States of the United States of America.)
….popgun

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe I came across wrong. I have no objection whatsoever to people having their own opinions. I just
don't think it's right that they can suspend you from school for wearing a Confederate shirt. I'm not asking for everyone to agree with me and start flying Confederate flags, I just want the freedom to do so if I want. I have no problem with Mexicans flying their flag here, but I think it's wrong when they dishonor our flag to do so. However, I am not dishonoring the American flag. I am very proud to be an American and I think it's the greatest nation on earth. But I don't fly the Confederate flag to be racist, hateful, or anti-American. I do it to honor an important part of our history, and the men who died.I know exactly what "seceding from the Union" means. The reason the South seceded in the first place was because it was being unfairly treated in regard to tariffs and taxes by the North. If you believe the South was a rebellious uprising by revolutionists then do you believe the same about the War for Independence. What's the difference, the colonies either wanted equality from England or out. The South either wanted equality from the North or out. There are some amazing similarities between the two wars, yet no one puts down the U.S. for fighting for independence from England.
I have seen that many people believe that the Civil War was fought over the issue of slavery and that the northern leaders were all abolitionists. Here are some interesting statements I've found:


Lincoln on Slavery: "I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of thewhite and black races - that I am not nor ever have been in favor of
making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that
thereis a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position
assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should
bedenied everything. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save
the Union without freeing any slave I would do it." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume III, "Fourth Debate with Stephen A. Douglas at Charleston, Illinois" (September 18, 1858), pp.
145-146.


Union General U.S. Grant, once said "I'll draw my sword on any man who
says
I fight the abolitionist's cause."

The Republican controlled Congress passed the first 13th Amendment in
the
spring of 1861. This amendment is the only one in the history of our nation to be signed by a President, Abe Lincoln. This amendment prohibited any
action by the federal government to restrict or end slavery in the states, and specifically stated that slavery was a right of the state. The Republicans passed this as a last ditch measure to avoid war!

Article Thirteen:
"No amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or
give to Congress the power to abolish or interfere, within any State, with the domestic institutions thereof, including that of persons held to
labor or service by the laws of said State."
I don't believe that was a southern rebel who said that. If you want to call anyone racist, look at Lincoln. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[popgun]

Okay, we’ll get back to the original question or comment at hand.
T-shirts.

I guess you realize that your school dress code was made up by “adults”.
We were all young once, whether or not young people believe that.
If we adults have not suffered from a stroke, become senile, suffer from dementia, or some other memory defect…..We still remember when we were teens.
I know; that was a long time ago.
We all tried to push the envelope to see how far we could get, not unlike the teens of today.
All teens want to stretch and see how far they can push the limits of the adults that are in control.
Before you know it, you will be in the working world and have to comply with the standards of your college or university, or workplace.
Just look at it as getting an early start.
Someday you will worry about what your son or daughter wears to school, as well as around town.

I still think that any flag other than the good old Stars and Stripes should not be flown nor displayed.
To me personally, it is a spit in the face of every veteran that served.
That’s just my personal opinion and I don’t really care who disagrees.
“There is only one flag of the United States of America”.

As for the quote from Honest Abe…..
If I were to judge only from that one speech, or debate, or whatever it is ….Yes, I’d say he was one of the biggest racists, hypocritical, bigots in our history.
I have never read that before, and thank you for bringing it to my attention.
He was not one of the greatest Americans who ever lived after all.

....popgun

[SUGARKAHNE]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, we’ll get back to the original question or comment at hand.
T-shirts.

I guess you realize that your school dress code was made up by “adults”.

As for the quote from Honest Abe…..
If I were to judge only from that one speech, or debate, or whatever it is ….Yes, I’d say he was one of the biggest racists, hypocritical, bigots in our history.
I have never read that before, and thank you for bringing it to my attention.
He was not one of the greatest Americans who ever lived after all.

....popgun

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I know I strayed from the topic a little but doing some research I had just found some interesting things to share. I do believe that Abe Lincoln was a great president, I just wanted you to see that the South wasn't the prejudiced racists and the North the good guys who just wanted to free the slaves.
As for the shirt, I attend a private school where I can wear a Dixie shirt without being called hateful, I was just talking about public schools. I really don't think it would be a good idea to wear those shirts there because it would just start trouble but I think you should have the freedom of you so chose to.
Thanks for the lecture "Pop", you've made me feel like a dumb little kid but you can ask my relatives, it's just about impossible to change my mind unless you've got a good argument.

http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[popgun]

[ QUOTE ]
I just wanted you to see that the South wasn't the prejudiced racists and the North the good guys who just wanted to free the slaves.


[/ QUOTE ]

You must have me mixed up with someone else.
I may be old, but I know I never said that.
If you think I even implied the above quote, please show me how you got it from what I said.

Hunting tomorrow, so this conversation is finished for me until I get back.
....popgun

[buckee]

I just thought I'd put my 2 cents in for what it's worth from a guy who lives North of the border.
The rebel flag is everywhere up here in Canada. Mostly flown, or displayed in some sort by teens, and young adults. It has two meanings up here, and two meanings only. It either means simply that you are a rebel (have a rebellious attitude towards adults and life in general) or you are a racist.

It has nothing absolutely to do with Southern pride of any kind up here, because those who display it, are far, far, far from being southerners.

[markyj987]

I'll start with the part of the topic that got off topic and go from there.

First of all, Abraham Lincoln's attitude towards blacks was certainly the majority belief in his day--in the north and the south. It may or may not been based on hatred, but I would contend that it was a real belief that whites were superior. Unlike the baseless belief that white supremecists hold today. (In reality, most differences between whites and blacks and their <u>perceived</u> intelligence are most certainly a result of socioeconomic reasons and not have anything to do with inherited genetic traits including skin color.

That being said, Lincoln's primary objective was to hold the Union together. It was NOT slavery. The reason the north wanted to keep the union is the same reason the south wanted to secede--the economy.

As SUGARKAHNE pointed out, the south was hit hard by high tariffs. The north, on the other hand was envious of the south and the virtually free labor of slaves. The industrial north was threatened by the possibility that the south may eventually thrive in manufacturing and be economically competitive with the north.

Like many wars--this was about the economy. Though 99.9% agree that slavery was a horrible thing, the reality is that the Emancipation Proclamation and all other things resulting from the war were the result of the north and south looking out for themselves.

The south wanted a weaker centralized government such that each state, for example, could establish its own trade agreements with each other and with other nations. The north, however, generally favored cetralized federal government in which that government would control trade within the states and between the states and other nations.

The fact that "it's the economy, stupid" has been a reality throughout time--and that is the main reason behind the Civil War. This, of course, expanded to states rights in various issues but the central theme--trade, tariffs, slavery, were all directly tied to the economy.

The quote from Grant is quite interesting: "I'll draw my sword on any man who says I fight the abolitionist's cause."

Though I do not know the context, Grants objective was not social policy--it was to win a war. That war, of course for the north, was to keep the Union together. It's certainly possible to spin that single quote any way.

I have no problem with the stars and bars. To some in the south, it has a major cultural significance--it may represent family values, pride in heritage, etc. Though the quote on that particular shirt rubbed me the wrong way at first, its cynicism is understandable. As a member of the most hated group in America--white, Christian males--I too wonder where MY rights and MY fair treatment are--but know it's perceived as racist to express these views in the public square!

Though this woman has a right to buy and speak out against the shirt, at such an event her rights were NOT violated. Just as they might through out a disruptive drunk, they certainly can throw out someone making a scene like that. And being that this was in South Carolina, it might have been for the best for her own safety that she was arrested!

FInally, what buckee pointed out was pretty accurate for here in Wisconsin too. I know many people, including my brother, that fly the stars and bars. My brother doesn't hate black people. He does, however, like to think he bucks the system--goes against the grain--or whatever cliche fits. He, although a Wisonsinite all his life, embraces the perceived southern values of loving God, loving family. His perception of the south and admiration thereof has nothing to do with race--though I do wish I'd see him fly Old Glory once in a while!

Ay caramba...maybe if I wrote less, I'd have more posts!

[heathcoerracin]

yeah this kind of crap gets me going!! I got called to the office the other week for supposably making death threats to blacks, which i didnt at all just because i said i liked living in the south! It really made me mad!!

[Yellowhammer]

Before this gets out of hand, I will point out what flag the Stars and Bars is. The Stars and Bars is this flag http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1b/Starsnbars.png/250px-Starsnbars.png This flag in the First National Flag of The Confederacy. Which means this flag was adopted by the Confederate Congress to be its offical flag. It was given the nickname Stars and Bars because of the three bars it has and for the seven stars that represent the seven states that had succeeded from the union at that time.

Now for the famous Confederate Battleflag that everybody thinks is a racist flag, which is this one http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/5960/scross.gif

This flag is known as the Army of Tennessee battleflag or as the Naval Jack. Why, because this flag was only carried by units that fought in The Army of Tennessee or by the Confederate Navy. This flag was never adopted as a official flag of the Confederacy, it was just a simple flag that the men could rally around to take the fight to the evil invading yankee horde army, that the US congress never declared as a war, But was started by abe himself. I hope this clears some things up, people should know what they are talking about before they say anything this is how lies and changing history get started. The media of today is famous for this.

[wtnhunt]

[ QUOTE ]
y caramba...maybe if I wrote less, I'd have more posts!


[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, ah yeah me too Mark. Get some kind of lengthy posts in here myself, good thing I type fairly quick.

Yes, as Mark and Sugarkhane point out here there are some common misconceptions associated with "Good Old Honest Ole Abe". Discussions in the American history class I took in college on Lincoln, there was a plan Lincoln had, which if I remember right was written out. Was very interesting to say the least, and being that he was never able to carry out the plan, no one will ever know for certain if he would have truly followed through with it.

After thinking a bit more about popguns post here, I do agree that this country has one flag and that flag should be respected and should be the flag that should be displayed and makes us all proud. I do however also think that if someone wishes to show their heritage whether it be by wearing a shirt with a spanish flag, mexican flag, french flag, or a confederate flag or whatever that they should be able to do so without having to worry about people making assumptions about them. People need not be so quick to make generalizations or judge someone solely from something so simple as a shirt.

The persons who are so quick to make those assumptions are being prejudice if they try to asssume that the person is a racist because they are wearing a shirt with a rebel flag.

[dg]

I'd rather have someone wearing a t-shirt like that instead of pants hanging below the cheeks of their hind-end with underwear showing. Boy if we protested that, all heck would break loose.

[johnf]

I am very proud to be a Southerner.

I find people from the South to be.

More polite
More hospitible
More relaxed
More helpfull
More Nice
More Openly Christian

I hear a lot from Northerners who visit down here how friendly it is down here. There is nothing wrong with being proud of that.

I do not own a single thing with a reble flag on it.
That's not what the South should be known for.

[BrotherBadger]

[ QUOTE ]
I am very proud to be a Southerner.

I find people from the South to be.

More polite
More hospitible
More relaxed
More helpfull
More Nice
More Openly Christian

I hear a lot from Northerners who visit down here how friendly it is down here. There is nothing wrong with being proud of that.

I do not own a single thing with a reble flag on it.
That's not what the South should be known for.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with that 100%. I have sat in rush hour traffic in Chicago and atlanta both more times than i can care to count, but the people in Atlanta are extremely nice. People in chicago won't even let you merge. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif In Atlanata, I have actually had someone wave at me. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[unioncountyslayer]

"Be proud you're a rebel,
cause the South's gonna do it again!"

-Charlie Daniels

[slugshooter]

Hopefully I am not too late to post on this thread...but even if I am, ya'll know I'm just gonna do it anyway. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

After reading through all the posts, I've read basically every argument that has ever been said or written about the "Rebel" flag. Here is one scenario though that I would like everyone on here to consider.

Everyone knows what a Swastika is correct? That most hated symbol of the Nazi party carried by the Germans in WW2. The Swastika has come to symbolize hatred, intolerance, racism, death, torture, and every other atrocity known to man. The problem is, is that the Swastika did not start out that way. The Swastika originally is an ancient Indian (East Indian, not Native American) symbol for good luck, in fact, many people from India still utilize this symbol in their daily lives. In fact, Native American tribes out west that used to sell goods at rest areas along highways in the early 1900's incorporated the Swastika on rugs and things of that nature. I even saw a picture of an old Boy Scout award that had the Swastika. The Swastika did not become the hated symbol that it is today until the Nazi's corrupted its true meaning.

Much like the Confederate symbol so hated and debated today, it did not start out that way, but it became that symbol over time for what it came to represent, not for what it originally meant.

Germany has banned the display, sale, or ownership of anything with the Swastika on it. Will the U.S. ban the Confederate symbol, most likely not because of our 1st Amendment.

In my honest opinion though, the Confederate flag has no place in a civil society, much like the Swastika. Flags that display the emblem belong in museums and history books.

[Steven]

[ QUOTE ]
"Be proud you're a rebel,
cause the South's gonna do it again!"

-Charlie Daniels

[/ QUOTE ]

We're going to lose the war again. Yay!!!

[RkyMtn]

Just to put in my two cents, I'm not from the south or a southerner, but I know the "rebel flag" as just that, a simbol of rebellion. When the symbol of your country gets hijacked by parasites, liberals, baby killers, and gungrabbers you go and get another symbol. For a lot of people this may be the obvious one! There's nothing racist about that!

[mims]

I like how in South Carolina the confederate flag was first flow over the state capital during the civil rights movement. Not racist at all. It was taken down and put at the conferderate monument, nice move SC