Do Some Research People!

[Jeramie]

I have a younger cousin that turned 29 last week. I called to wish him a happy birthday and the conversation went south about 5-minutes later.

Somehow we landed on politics. This Kid makes around 56k a year and votes…… bum, bum, bum… Democrat! What in the world!?!?!?!?!? He also has several guns and thinks Obama or Hillary would be a better choice then a republican because, “Look at the Mess Bush has landed us in. Bill Clinton would NEVER have put us in this mess!” Someone slap me, I’m about to say something to break my ties with family.

He then goes to spouting stuff about “Blood for Oil” and such. With a suit and desk he could have easily been on the evening news. To top that off he then told me how bad the Economy is due to the war and Bush’s presidency. “Clinton had the economy headed the right direction and bush wrecked it with the war.”

Pretty much in the run down and his thoughts on everything,
* Gas prices are set by republicans. That’s why they are so high. The rich are getting richer. He didn’t have a clue what OPEC was.
* Bush is an evil tyrant. This entire war is pointless and we shouldn’t be there. A democrat wouldn’t have put us in this situation.
* The Republican party is for the rich. Real people should vote democrat.
* Democrats aren’t trying to take away guns, after all, a lot of democrats own guns. Why would anyone want to take them away?
* And who cares as long as I have a paycheck, my roping horse, and beer to drink this weekend…..

AND HE VOTES! AHHHHHHHHHH!

At this point I’ve argued so much I’m salivating. Honestly, I’m lost at this point. How can anyone (especially someone who is a prime candidate for the Republican Party) able to believe every negative thing he has heard without looking into it!? AND HE VOTES.

We have been talking about it today at work. How in the world can anyone be so naive? There are millions out there that watch the evening news and say, “Wow, Bush is an idiot.” They don’t form their own opinions based on facts. They don’t consider the fact that taking oil is a war crime, the stock market and DOW have reported record high’s. We have to compete for Oil with China and everyone else. And other little matters such as Hillary’s campaign to make Illegals legal with a push of a pen and the fact that the Dems all voted for the war until it came to actually having to pay a price and then Bush was an Idiot.

These people put more though into what they are having for dinner then they put into where our country is heading! They simply hear something on TV and regurgitate it as truth. It makes me want to beat my head against the wall.




Btw, this was basically a rant and not necessarily a coherent one at that. I just needed to get that off my chest. Feel free to scream along....

[buckee]

I feel for ya. I hate getting into political discussions with friends. It's down-right dangerous.
It sounds like we has bought into every piece of hog-wash ever spewed eh. I bet his favourite movie producer is Michael Moore too.

You poor guy..LOL (sorry, didn't mean to laugh, but it's what I do best instead of crying;) )

[Newarcher]

Take him hunting on election day, drop him off at his stand location with a promise to be back about dark so you both can vote, and then don't pick him up! :D

You can't help the one liners. Those are people that spew forth the party line they heard the nightly news deliver or the latest thing Rosey said in an effort to be hip.

I usually shut them down by asking "Oh really, can you give me some evidence of that?" to whatever they say. Then they usually go awkkk...ahhh....well.....they say its so.

As someone once explained.....God made you about yeay long, the rest you did yourself. You can't help some people.

New

[Jeramie]

You poor guy..LOL (sorry, didn't mean to laugh, but it's what I do best instead of crying;) )

:D I want to laugh about it but Im to outraged by the people voting without a clue what they are voting for!!

If Hillary gets in I can say, "Told you so." but some how I know that wont help the real pain. You all have any more room in Canada?

Ill come across Legal, I promise... :D

[wtnhunt]

Take him hunting on election day, drop him off at his stand location with a promise to be back about dark so you both can vote, and then don't pick him up! :D


LOL. That is a great idea.

How in the world can anyone be so naive?

Unfortunately Jeramie there are those out there who just don't seem to get it and really don't fully understand the repercussions of what happens now will be felt by our children and their children. Then there are those who believe what the liberal media anti Bush sentiment and cannot see what the media and the liberal lawmakers who have flaked out have done and are doing to this country :mad:.

Then you also have those who want what is best for them in THEIR OWN current situation regardless of what it may mean for the future of the country. It is sad for me to see that is where my parents are at right now at the current time, which goes totally against how I viewed them when I was growing up. They were a bit on the conservative side in a way. I cannot talk politics with them anymore. From my step fathers current vantage point(he is a Viet Nam vet now disabled), and yes he had some really ill feelings towards traitor Jane and nothing that she ever was in on the tv was allowed to be seen in our home when I was a kid, in yet he was willing to and I think he did indeed vote for Kerry :(. Anyways his view point now is that the conservatives have us brainwashed into having these concerns that the libs are trying to take away our guns and that we need to pull out and not worry about what will happen if we do not pursue terrorists where they are, they really believe that we bring our troops home everything will be hunky dory fine and dandy the world will live happily ever after :(. Really is a shame to see the separation in this country, and when it comes down to talking politics with family, sometimes in some situations you are really best off to just not go there at all :confused:.

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

Jeramie, what you're describing is the classic differences between Democrats and Republicans, or more precisely, between liberals and conservatives.

Liberals believe certain things because it's what they've been told by the press, by those in the entertainment industry, or others that they believe are smarter than them. Add to that the fact that their entire life is emotion, rather than logic, driven and you'll begin to see why they think the way they do.


Conservatives believe certain things because we analyze data and draw conclusions from that data. We also tend to separate the message from the messenger. Just because a conservative icon says such and such is good, I won't necessarily agree with them if I see facts that disprove their statement.

[Newarcher]

Jeramie, what you're describing is the classic differences between Democrats and Republicans, or more precisely, between liberals and conservatives.

Liberals believe certain things because it's what they've been told by the press, by those in the entertainment industry, or others that they believe are smarter than them. Add to that the fact that their entire life in emotion, rather than logic, driven and you'll begin to see why they think the way they do.


Conservatives believe certain things because we analyze data and draw conclusions from that data. We also tend to separate the message from the messenger. Just because a conservative icon says such and such is good, I won't necessarily agree with them if I see facts that disprove their statement.

That's exactly right Texan.

The difference between the liberal and the republican is usually the first paycheck of a professional career or trade. It's all theory and supposition until the deductions meet the paycheck.

My sister-in-law is a flaming liberal who had her flame extinguished just a little when she got married, had a kid, and bought a house. Suddenly those taxes for artwork that no one will buy don't seem so great. She's coming around.

New

[muggs]

To play Devil's Advocate...why must we have blind faith for Bush? How anyone can say he's had a good tenure is beyond me. I consider myself a Republican who thinks Bush is a bad President. That's OK to admit, ya know.

Iraq has been botched since before we even declared war on them. Tax from oil sales are funded the mess over there, and the guy can't even finish a sentence. He's not a good President. That's OK to admit too.

[buckee]

To play Devil's Advocate...why must we have blind faith for Bush? How anyone can say he's had a good tenure is beyond me. I consider myself a Republican who thinks Bush is a bad President. That's OK to admit, ya know.

Iraq has been botched since before we even declared war on them. Tax from oil sales are funded the mess over there, and the guy can't even finish a sentence. He's not a good President. That's OK to admit too.

I guess you forgot who the alternates were...LOL:D

[Mathews XT Man]

And BUSH is an "IDIOT"..????

[Colorado Bob]

I think it was Churchhill who said " If you are under 40 & not a liberal--you have no heart. If you are over 40 & not a conservative---you have no brain."


Texan----I sort of disagree on---conservatives, analyze data & draw conculsions from that data. The one's I know----just spout off whatever Rush or Shawn say------Like it's gospel.

Not to many of us independents left out there. CB

[wtnhunt]

To play Devil's Advocate...why must we have blind faith for Bush? How anyone can say he's had a good tenure is beyond me. I consider myself a Republican who thinks Bush is a bad President. That's OK to admit, ya know.

Iraq has been botched since before we even declared war on them. Tax from oil sales are funded the mess over there, and the guy can't even finish a sentence. He's not a good President. That's OK to admit too.

Eric given the circumstances under which this President has had to deal with while in office, I think history will not have Bush down as a terrible President like you suggest. I would not say he is the greatest, but he has had to make tough choices, and done what he really feels is right for this country at this time when the challenges we have faced have been out of the ordinary. There are some who agree with him, I happen to be one of those who does, and those who do not like yourself. Everyone has a right to form their own opinions.

If it were not for the attacks on this country and those who want to kill us all, including those terrorists who happen to be in countries we are in now, would you view this President differently? Does it make any difference that they have not been able to attack as with another 9/11 type attack here on our own soil again? Getting right down to it, when Bush took office the economy was not so great, the country took a hit unlike we have ever before taken, the stock market fell and you know all about the war. For a very short time this country(political leaders included) seemed to put politics aside and were able to agree that we needed to go after all those who might want to get us first, that philosophy has been lost by those who now see it as unpopular due to the casualties of war. The economy has recovered, the stock market is at all time highs, but we still have men and women fighting for what some view as a necessity.

I have not been around for all that long, but I can say I have never in my life seen one President that has been criticized to the extreme that this one has. Catastrophic events such as hurricanes and how they were handled have even been used as political tactics by those who oppose the man to further create separation in this country. When in history in the past has such scrutiny over such been leveraged against a President for nothing more than political gains? Sure Clinton had his affairs and was pursued for his actions, but that was self brought upon, not like Bush asked to summon a hurricane, not like he invited the attacks on this country.

[muggs]

William, your point that Bush has had to deal with some extreme circumstances, is a good one and very true. Originally, I voted for Bush and was really glad that he was the Commander in Chief leading us into "the war of terror."

But since, my opinion has really changed. Saddam was a huge threat and needed to be taken out without question. He had the billions to bankroll terrorists, and he would have. But I believe the initial plan was inadequate, and the handling since victory was declared has been even worse. I know it's easy for me to sit here and criticize people who have to make the tough decisions...but they're the elected officials we trust to do so, and I don't think they're holding up their end of the bargain. I also think it's more than fair to define Bush's tenure by this war, and to me, it's an obvious failure.

I heard some stats and if they're true (I really have no way to know, but they came from CBS for whatever that is worth-maybe not much) but 51% of Iraqi's support attacks on coalition forces and even the very gov't we're trying to establish wants us out. The only reason we're over there is to set our chess piece on the global oil battle. Call me a liberal for thinking that...I don't care, to me, that's obvious too.

As far as the market being up, who knows why?? The only thing I do know is that it has nothing to do with Bush. Maybe bad news is good for Wall St. Gas prices are at record highs, we're at war, our auto mfgs. are all going bankrupt, all our descent jobs are being sent off shore, even our American flags are being made in China, terrorism is a constant threat, crime and drugs are running rampant, our country is politically divided, our President's approval rating is as low as it can go, etc. Yet the market is continuing its rocket ride (up 100 points yesterday). Again at record levels. Figure that one out...I can't, all I know is my thrift savings plan is doing well.:cool:

I guess my point (if there is one after all my ramblings) is that it's OK to admit Bush is failing in Iraq and still call yourself a Rebulican. When it comes to Bush, it seems like you have the devote followers who can admit nothing negative (Rush Limbaugh if you please) and the extreme liberals who's frantic rants discredit them. Why is there no happy medium?

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

I guess my point (if there is one after all my ramblings) is that it's OK to admit Bush is failing in Iraq and still call yourself a Rebulican.

That's exactly what I meant when I said conservatives, as a group, are much more objective than liberals. After all, when did we EVER see a Democrat/liberal admit that Bill Clinton was a royal screw up as president?

[Jeramie]

I never said "Bush couldn't have done any better!" Seriously. I think he was by far the better choice over Kerry.

Do I think he is doing a bang up job now, not necessarily.

My point is that most people are looking at this as a political battle. My cousin is the prime example thinking that the republicans are the ones running this country in the ground and putting Obama or Hillary in office will be wise because they aren't republicans.

The thing that really boils me about Democrats (as a party whole) is that they are using the media as a smear campaign. They are not stating any facts, they aren't digging up truths about the war, etc. Instead they air Bush = War. War = Death and bad Image. Death and invasion = Evil, err go Bush = Evil. (R) Bush = Republican, Republican = Evil

No one is even looking at the big picture! They aren't saying that Hillary is a windbag and that she is trying to take away guns. All they can see is that Bush is Evil! Get him out of office and vote in a good little girl. If he did the research he could have just as easily said, "Bush is botching the war but Im not voting for Hillary. Could you imagine what would happen if she were voted in during a war like this!" But he didn't. It was Hillary = Democrat. Democrat = no war, no blood for oil, no Bush. Er go, Hillary = Good!

People like that aren't doing any research. They are simply listening to the bias media and then stepping into a voting booth. Why I dont know, I guess they just like the free sticker.

[wtnhunt]

OK, contrary to what you might believe Eric, I am not a registered republican. I am independent, but I am viewed as being pretty conservative.

Seriously Eric, think you have unknowingly answered some of your own questions. Funny thing, you may not even know that you asked those questions or maybe I am just seeing an inquisitive nature in your wording. Gas prices are reflected on in part as a result of China and the increase in manufacturing worldwide, I honestly do not believe that George Bush has driven the gas prices up, furthermore, if we were in Iraq for the sole purpose of controlling the oil market don't you think prices here would be just a bit cheaper? If Bush was concerned about popularity he would control the oil prices and make gas cheap for everyone here at home, right? Seems not so long back someone posted an image of oil producing nations, and seems that Iraq was a small fraction of total production. Actually if you notice, not only are gas prices up, but so is steel, which also has a lot to do with China. Don't think Bush has any control over stopping or slowing China's productions, so unfortunately those prices may continue to be escalated possibly forever.

Couple things to remember here. Leadership is not always about a popularity contest. Sometimes doing what will make you viewed poorly at THAT time, if it is what you feel is in the best interest, is the only viable decision that you can make. While some may not understand fully, and may view you in a negative light for making those decisions, you feel as though you have done what is best in the process sacrificing your popularity by maintaining those decisions because you felt they were the right decisions. Certainly in my opinion Bush has good reason to hold strong despite being unpopular in keeping us committed to getting Iraq stable enough to stand on its own. You yourself said, and I don't want to read anything in here so correct me if I am wrong, but you yourself said that you agree that removing Saddam from power was a positive outcome for the war. I guess in reading what you have said, you were for the war, but would have liked for our troops to have come home when Bush declared victory on the carrier? I think we all would agree that if that had been possible it would have saved a lot of our soldiers lives and that would have been great, but unfortunately the time was not right. The issue there that has been beaten to death, but still remains a serious question, is do you really think if we pull out that everything will end and all will be well for this country? Some really believe that we come home, that terrorists will leave us alone. Had we pulled out then, what would the terrorists we are still fighting there now have done, just gave up too? I have a hard time thinking that they would not be right behind us if not ahead of us and riding on a high thinking that they have us whooped.

Something else to ponder here, and I hate to make speculations on what ifs, but what if a liberal gets in office and pulls out our troops, brings them all home, what will happen next? Is the war really over? How will it change how Bush is viewed? If after that Iraq slips away into full blown civil war, and jihadist training camps run rampant all over that country, leading to more attacks here in this country on scales that make 9/11 seem weak, what then? Would that then change some people's perspective on Bush and what he was trying to avoid?

None of us can KNOW all the answers, but we can kind of speculate or theorize what we think might happen. For my children, the idea of just pulling out and leaving really scares me. I personally just don't think it would be in our country's best interest.

[muggs]

Tax proceeds from gas sales are funding this war. I know this sounds like mere speculation on my part, but I have a good source for making that statement. (I wouldn't make a statement like that on mere specuation alone, even though I think it's obvious). My uncle, Hank Jablonski, is an engineer who works for a large company. He designs the piping for oil refineries. He's traveled all over the world, to South America before Chavez nationalized the refineries there, to the mid-east, to Colorado where there are huge reserves you'll never hear about etc... He's seen refineries that have been closed down (within the past two years) due to under use and no need, he's seen the majority of US refineries operating at 1/3 capacity because that was all that's needed. When I hear that the cost of refining the oil is the reason for the price hike...I can't believe it. This guy, a highly educated man, who's seen all this frist hand believes tax proceeds for gas are funding the war.

As far as the war goes. No way can we pull our troops out now, and I don't think we should have pulled them out after Bush declare the war was over.

My problem is with the initial strikeforce. It was way too small (actually, I don't think enough troops were sent to Afganistan either)...that's the problem I have, and that's why I think we're still in the mess we're in over there. I think the most important question is when will we ever be able to pull our troops out? We could continue to lose young American lives over there for the next 100 years without any real progress.

As a whole, Bush has done a decent job, his main flaw has been Iraq...but it's one heck of a flaw to have.

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

Tax proceeds from gas sales are funding this war.

I'm really unclear on this concept? As far as I know, all federal taxes on gasoline sales are based on the flat rate of 18.4 cents per gallon, and that money is dedicated to transportation.

[wtnhunt]

My problem is with the initial strikeforce. It was way too small (actually, I don't think enough troops were sent to Afganistan either)...that's the problem

Yeah, I would have to agree with you there Eric. Dont know how the generals in the field underestimated their needs, but seems kind of obvious they did. Does not help either that our military saw the cuts they did under the Clinton administration. That in my opinion has a little to do with why we were seemingly spread to thin and why so many are seeing the multiple tours they are seeing.

[stevebeilgard]

i wouldn't feel bad if the whole middle east were nuked into a glass fiels. would make a good parking lot in about a hundred years. our "friends" over there, aren't friends.

[BowJoe]

Sorry muggs but I have to call you out on a few liberal statements you've made. You might have once been a republican but man have you gone way left. And that's ok to say too. You stated that Bush's failure of this war is a blanket of his entire tenure being a failure. I for one don't agree with everything President Bush does but he's definately got more sense than Kerry, Edwards, and Clinton have combined. Who by the way all voted for the war! But I guess since they have the President to blame for duping them then that's ok even though Clinton said she researched it herself and found all of his statements to be true. I guess she more than helped out by distancing herself from the President's views by saying she did personal investigating. But wait... she now says she was duped by the President even though... it... was ...her that did the investigations. Explain to me again how you dupe somebody who made the decision based on her own personally gathered information. Oh yeah, the President has his own CIA and not the same one all of the other senators have access to and he controls the CIA solely and without any information ever being leaked out. Right.......

Another point I can't believe you made is that you are quoting the CBS stats. Isn't CBS the same "News" people that falsified documents during the last presidential election stating the the president was unaccounted for during Vietnam and was AWOL? Yeah, I thought that was the same company. Didn't a veteran reporter resign over that too and now they have Colgate Katie to replace him? Yeah, same company. You can almost guarantee that if the media says it's true (whether it involves the Libs or Conservatives) then they probably made the whole thing up. It's a Liberal media out there and they prey on the gullible, ignorant and lazy people that beleive everything they hear without question and are too lazy to research the facts for themselves. I'm a conservative libertarian for a reason. I believe in God, Family and Country in that order. I don't think that being gay is ok. I don't think that we should respect others athiest beliefs since that's an oxymoron and I'm not asking you to do what I do. Athiest means you have no beliefs religious or otherwise. I would love to have a bumper sticker that says: ATHIEST--YOU ONLY HOPE YOU'RE RIGHT. I believe oil prices are set (in part) by arabs that hate us except for the fact that we've made them rich beyond belief. You said that you don't have a clue as to why the economy is up but you know for a fact that it has nothing to do with the President. Can you say rewind? You just said you have no idea why the economy's up yet you have comfort in knowing that the liberal media has told you the President didn't have anything to do with it cause he's stupid. Well how stupid are we for voting him into office not once but twice? I guess you are in with us cause you said you voted for him too. The only thing that's changed since 9/11 is the amount of people that believe what the media tells them to believe. They only print what the people want to hear and when you get people into a frenzy like they are now with the whole Bush is ignorant propaganda then they sell more newspapers and libs buy more junk news.

I had a discussion with a guy I work with and he almost quoted word for word the newspapers and libs that said the President is in Iraq for oil and to revenge his daddy. He said that he lied to everyone about the WMDs and that all we wanted to do was control the oil fields and help out the Vice President and Haliburton. He had no comment when I told him that if money is all the Vice President is after then why did he and his wife donate over half of their money to charity. He said that's so they could get more money back when they filed their taxes. Now how many people have ever heard of people making that kind of money and getting some back when they pay their taxes?

My Point is that I believe muggs is a liberal because his statements are almost identical to the liberal agenda. That to me defines a liberal. I don't dislike you muggs at all, we just happen to disagree and I want more than anything for you to back up your beliefs with proof or at least your own research and not CBS's. Read deeper than the headlines from the AP or Reuters. Look at it from a point of view that they have to offer proof of their claims in an editorial type report where they offer oppinion instead of solid facts. Second, the market has nothing to do with the popularity of the President. Neither does the price of oil. By the way, Congress' approval rating is lower than the President's. Check it out. By the way. Have noticed that you blamed the President for all of the wrongs with oil, the war, and how the presidency's run but you can't give him credit for a strong economy and your wealth? Sounds like a denial of common sense to me. The one thing listed that the President does have a major influence on and you can't even say he did it right. That's a liberal. Also, one thing to think about is the fact that the Libs and Al Qaida are both saying to pull out of Iraq and the President is a very bad man. That thought keeps me up at night knowing that I can't differentiate between the Enemy and the libs. Their messages are exactly the same.

[BowJoe]

After rereading my post muggs, I think it sounds like I was attacking you and I do apologize for it sounding that way. I in no way think muggs is a bad person and on the contrary think he's one heck of a guy. I was more directing my statements at liberals in general and the lack of effort to find out for themselves what's fact and fiction. Sorry. Have a good day.

[wtnhunt]

After rereading my post muggs, I think it sounds like I was attacking you and I do apologize for it sounding that way. I in no way think muggs is a bad person and on the contrary think he's one heck of a guy. I was more directing my statements at liberals in general and the lack of effort to find out for themselves what's fact and fiction. Sorry. Have a good day.


At this point I am going to let this go, as this is a debate about viewpoints and opinions on politics. Does not look so much to me like a personal attack as it does an opinion on liberals and their agenda, just keep it civil or it will get locked.

[BowJoe]

I wasn't aware that anything was uncivil and the threat of locking a thread because I wanted to make it clear that I wasn't trying to make it a personal attack seems a bit overboard. I simply said that I didn't want any misunderstanding on my part to be misconstrued as a personal attack because I used muggs' name. I made that decision immediately after I posted the main comment. I just thought better of it and instead of editing a whole post of mine, I wanted to clear the air to prevent further misconceptions. I don't really understand the threat of locking this thread.

[wtnhunt]

Joe, I was simply replying to your post here. So long as this remains a civil debate there will be no need to lock it, that was my point. Not a threat, but a reminder that any attacks on other members will not be tolerated, debates can go on without that type nonsense. No doubt these types of discussions can get personal and can turn ugly, lets just continue to keep it civil.

[buckee]

William was just nippin it in the bud before it got started up good, that's all.;)

Good thing too, I suspect :)

[jdickey]

It is a very common and well known fact .... all Liberals suffer from TERMINAL SHORT TERM MEMORY LOSS!

No other way to explain it!

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

It is a very common and well known fact .... all Liberals suffer from TERMINAL SHORT TERM MEMORY LOSS!

No other way to explain it!

HA! We just wish it were terminal! :D

Actually, the word you're looking for is chronic.

[BowJoe]

I heard a very interesting view from Rush on this whole oil business the other day. He said that even if every private car went 100% corn gas that the taxes for all of the commercial buyers would go through the roof just to make up the difference of what they'd be losing from us. Gas would shoot up to $15 a gallon and they'd still tax us high. I think the problem is we have too many people in government out to make a fortune for their buddies which in turn will take care of them in campaign funds and lobbying money. I'll tell you now that the best chances for investing are right now while we're on the verge of the biggest conversion of fuel usage since the invention of the car. If I had the money, I'd invest in the large farm corporations and refinery plants. This is the reason why I don't like the democratic party's beliefs. I for one don't like to have my direction decided for me by big government. I would rather guide my government where to go.