Self Defense Pistol

[buckfever7]

I've been looking at purchasing a pistol simply for self defence. Any recomendations? I've only researched 2, the Glock 19 and the Smith & Wesson SW9VE. Thanks.

[hutchies]

If you are planning on carrying concealed I would personally go with a .380. Mainly something that is small and easily concealed.

[muggs]

the springfield XD subcompact is an awesome gun, 9mm, 40 cal are the only two models I think, not that expensive either

[ParrotHead]

I really love my Beretta Model 92 - great gun.

[LifeNRA]

I carry a Walther PPKs Stainless .380, nice gun but .380 are not known as being very accurate. Now I wish I would have a smaller 9mm, or a compact 40S&W.

[ronin]

What conditions will the gun be in? Strictly home defense in a drawer or next to your bed, glovebox gun, holstered on your hip, etc.?

IMO,the best home defense gun if you don't have much training and don't really want to train, is a short 12 guage pump shotgun with low recoil 00 buck. Night sights are a must. The nice thing about this old work horse is almost anyone can deploy it quickly and effectively...even in the dark. You also have a better effective range...up to 50 yards if need be. A 50 yard house shot probably won't happen. My point is that you will be inherently more accurate with the shotgun.

From a concelment standpoint, you should examine how and where you will carry. Big guns are hard to conceal with a T-shirt and fanny packs advertise your gun. Holster selection is just as important as the gun. If you have trouble with your draw you might as well not carry.

Small guns often translate to small caliber and small magazines, (semi-auto). But....they conceal really well. If you want small, pick your caliber and bullet with care. Also shot placement becomes absolutely critical. Not that it should be ignored with larger calibers, but small cartridges often mean lack of penetration + expansion = poor wound channel.

Ideally, a self defense round will have a penetration of 9-12 inches. Most bullets below .380 can't be counted on to perform that way. Though, Corbon has now come out with a new .32, the .32 Corbon I believe. The Corbon bullet takes the .32 from it's normally anemic 900FPS and boosts it into the 1400 + or - FPS arena. This changed the ballistics of the little bullet dramatically.

For bullet selection you need to concern yourself with penetration and wound channel. The farther the bullet goes into a body and the bigger the hole it makes means a better chance of stopping the threat. I've seen a lot of people shot with everything you can imagine. It's amazing what the human body can take. The 'ol workhorse .45 ACP is still a proven self defense round for a reason.

There are volumes written on pistol and bullet selection for self defense but the bottom line is ultimately how well you can employ your own personal weapon under stress. You should consider your absolute worst case scenario with the absolute worst conditions available and then decide which weapon can I employ the quickest, accurately and effectively, with little to no fumbling or thinking. This is a hard pill to swallow but keep it in mind when your trying on guns for size.

I carry a Beretta Tomcat .32 with Corbon HP ammo when I'm wearing closefitting clothing, shorts, tanks tops, etc. For normal carry I have either a Para Ord. C-6 .45 Para Carry with an LDA trigger and night sights. I prefer the Winchester SXT police ammo formerly called "Black Talon". Name changed cause a stupid liberal thought it was racist.

Revolvers are great, too. They are really simple to employ and easy to maintain. There is a lot of .38 ammo out there that can be extremely effective. Snub nose 357's though don't perform like their long barreled cousins. 1.5-3" barrels don't allow the 357 to reach it's potential in velocity. Thus your just as well off shooting .38 without the recoil.

I'm sorry if this is long winded, however, it's a very important decision to make. Whatever you do...practice, practice, practice.

[Strut10]

Excellent post, ronin!!

Good advice to consider the "worst case scenario" and arm accordingly.

With the number of ultra-reliable, ultra-compact 9mm's, .357's (Magnum and Sig), 40's and 45's on the market, I can't think of too many reasons to choose a .25, .32 or .380 as a primary concealed defense weapon.

If you're going to carry a gun to stop a fight............carry a gun that will stop a fight.

[WNY_Whitetailer]

Nice post ronin...I have a S&W 6904 9mm Compact...It has a 3.5" barrel and is easily concealed under a sweatshirt or jacket in my Alessi Hideout holster. The warm weather will be a different story. I plan on picking up a Kel-Tec P32 or P3AT for warm weather duty...I need something that I can slide down into my jeans/shorts pocket into a pocket holster.

[ZooBear]

I carry 24/7 and my thoughts are whatever you carry make sure its 100% reliable. My carry guns tend to get banged around. Make sure you load it with quality ammo.
My #1 rule is make sure its comfortable to carry! When your on the beach, a 32 in your shorts pocket is alot better than a 44 in your glove compartment!

[snapper]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're going to carry a gun to stop a fight............carry a gun that will stop a fight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Couldn't agree more...IMO, a .380 would make a good backup carry gun, but I'd rather not carry anything smaller than a 9mm. If my life depends on it...I want to make sure I have enough gun! http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ronin]

Thanks...I agree to a certain for the 95% of the time. Even the sub compacts can be bulky, though, and don't conceal well on the body when the person is wearing really close fitting clothing.

I think the .32 and .380 have a place but the person has to be a practiced shooter with self-defense fundementals fastened firmly to their collective belts. I wouldn't go smaller than .32 and I only use .32 with bullets that are effective.

My wife carries and we took a lot of time working on guns and loads. Nothing seemed to fit or fire to her needs. She ultimately chose the Tomcat .32 with the Corbon ammo. She can put more rounds in vital areas using a "zipline" shooting technique with the .32 than with any other firearm. She carries the .32 out of preference.

Personally, I prefer the .45 and probably always will. Though I do have a keen interest in the relatively new FN 5.7.

[ronin]

Thanks...the SW is good gun. While your looking at .32's you might want to check out the new NAA .32 Corbon. I haven't shot it but the ballistics look good.

[WNY_Whitetailer]

That Corbon 380 Auto ammo comes out of the barrel at 1050 fps with 220 ft lbs of energy out of a 90 grain JHP bullet...Not too bad for a little pocket pistol caliber.

[ronin]

This is the posting from the Corbon Site

32NAA -- 60gr JHP -- 1200fps/192ftlbs -- 20 Rnds. per box

This is actually a relatively new bullet for a new gun. It won't work in a normal .32.

[buckfever7]

Thanks folks. I will be using this as a concealed carry gun. I'm narrowing down to the Kahr Arms K9094 & the Springfield XD...or something along that size. 9mm 3.5" barrell. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[SavageTaylor]

I am still try'n to wrap my head around "Self Defense pistol" used in concieled carry mode.

My first thought is... what kind of force are you going to try & repel? Gang bangers, car jackers, burgulars, robbers, terrorists? Because if you are worried about the homey gang bangers & they are packing heavy ordinance, such as Mac 10 or Uzi machine pistols, then you are going to be seriously underguned with any regular pistol mentioned so far. Up here when the police gang squad make a bust they bring the whole 9 yards, including full body armor & they are equipped with Berretta 10mm pistols as well as H&K MP5 9mm smg & Rem 870 pump guns.
If all you are worried about is a dog atack while walking in the park, then your popgun will do the job.
It kinda reminds me of the saying "don't bring a knife to a gun fight" it's always better to be the one carrying the superior firepower when diplomacy fails.
Personally, if the situation goes so far south that I can't control it without gunplay, then I will do my best dirty harry immitation & bring out the .44 Mag to make things right. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
http://www.hunt101.com/img/237430.jpg
--Ken

[Strut10]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks folks. I will be using this as a concealed carry gun. I'm narrowing down to the Kahr Arms K9094 & the Springfield XD...or something along that size. 9mm 3.5" barrell. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe, if I were going to choose a gun of that frame size, I would go with a .40 S&W or a .357 Sig. Many of the same guns chambered for 9mm come in both other calibers. And there's a good bit of difference in the power levels of the 40 and the Sig over the 9mm.

[snapper]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, if the situation goes so far south that I can't control it without gunplay, then I will do my best dirty harry immitation & bring out the .44 Mag to make things right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not enough ammo....lol.

I agree with Strut about the .40 or .357sig...maybe even a 10mm. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[buckfever7]

I work for the MSP here in the great state of Maine. My live has been threatened weekly, this is a small state when it comes to population, and many here that I deal with that are incarserated have family and friends that live in my area. Sooooo, I want a gun that is dependable and able to be carried on my body in a concealed way. Simple as that. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Strut10]

[ QUOTE ]
...maybe even a 10mm. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't even gonna go there, Snapper. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Didn't feel like starting anything. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[13littleones]

I will be looking to purchase a pistol later on this year to carry concealed... YOu guys sure do have some great replies...... thanks......

[Strut_Buster]

My dream Pistol is an HK tactical. that would be anyones perfect self defense weapon.

[ronin]

Both good guns...

[ronin]

My duty gun is the HK USP in .45. IMO, HK is top of the line. I've carried this gun for 10 years and it shoots just as good today as it did on the day I bought it.

[ronin]

( If all you are worried about is a dog atack while walking in the park, then your popgun will do the job.
It kinda reminds me of the saying "don't bring a knife to a gun fight" it's always better to be the one carrying the superior firepower when diplomacy fails.)

However, one must be proficient with ones "firepower". If you can't shoot it under stress it doesn't matter what you carry...50/50 chance you'll lose the battle.

I've seen guys hit with .45's that walk away and other "plinked" with .380's that dropped dead in their tracks. Was it the bullet? No, it was the shooter and the shot placement.

[SavageTaylor]

[ QUOTE ]


Not enough ammo....lol.

http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

With two speedloaders I am good for 18 rounds of .44 Mag before I have to slow down much... but if the perp's are cut'n loose with 30 round mags, then retreat or at least keeping one's head down sounds like a good plan.
Sounds like Buckfever7 needs a better class of neibors... . http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

[ronin]

Your the first person I met that has the Cougar...what's it like? I haven't even had a chance to shoot one.

[Big_Game_Hunter_64]

id reccomend the M16 or the AK-47 lol jk

(i dont know anything about pistols)

[Strut10]

[ QUOTE ]
Some of them are a bit pricey, but when your life is threatened money is not an issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

EXACTLY!!

I don't wanna stake my life on the cheapest tool I can find. Heaven forbid I ever have to use one of my defense guns against another human being. I hope I never have to. But I am certain............absolutely certain............if I do, the gun will hold up its end of the deal.

[Orion_70]

When I was a police officer I carried a Sig.. Still carry one too. They're a little pricey but well worth it.(Texas Rangers and SEALS carry the sigs also)

[RkyMtn]

Please, please, please, do not trust your life to a pistol of minor caliber!! .40 or larger is necessary for one stop shots!! This is your primary concern in a gunfight, knife v. gun, knife v. club etc! Most confrontations are within arms reach, and even a pistol of major caliber may not prevent you from being injured or killed after shots are fired. Also, fewer shots to stop forward progress looks a lot better in court. I have a .380, but I would not carry it. My 5'11" 165 pound frame (READ SKINNY!) can conceal a 4" XD .40 very well, even during competive archery shoots. DON'T GET A SMALLER GUN, GET A BIGGER SHIRT! Also, the ideal self defense gun will penetrate 13.5", overpowered guns such as the .357 sig, 44 mag, 10mm dump energy BEHIND the target, such as into a wall, your neighbor, the cat, into a store, a child, etc. Feel free to explain that to the law.
Good luck and stay safe!!

[ZooBear]

If you get shot in the head with a 380 you are stopped.
Where did the 13.5 inches come from? Why would that be the "ideal" vs 14.5 or 12.5 ??

[ronin]

"One shot stops", "stopping power", etc. are phrases that give the wrong impression to new and old self defense gun owners.

Hollywood has the average person believing that when a bad guy gets shot he's thrown back against a wall 2-3' and expires with little more than a twitch. Any hunter who has shot a deer in the vitals with a "high power" rifle should know that doesn't happen much. I've shot coyotes with an 8mm in the chest cavity that still ran 100 yards.

I don't know how many actual shootings you have seen but there are rarely "one shot stops". (I'm not trying to be a jerk, I just don't know your background, thus the statement. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif) It doesn't mean one shot won't kill eventually but eventually is not what a person trying to save their own or others lives is worried about.

When an attackers' blood is flowing or worse yet, its coupled with drugs, he or she can be capable of amazing things in a relatively short period of time. To include killing a home owner who just shot him in a vital area with a big handgun bullet.

As I mentioned before, big bullets from big cartiridges have a better chance of doing more damage as they create a larger wound channel and often penetrate deeper. But...a well placed little bullet can kill just as well. As a matter of fact, numerous well placed little bullets can be even more effective. Some people just can' take the recoil or noise of larger guns, simple as that. They should shoot a smaller gun that they handle in a more effective manner.

IMO, self defense shooters should be more concerned with proper training for defensive shooting situations. Training that includes stress, timing, barriers, darkeness, multiple targets, holsters, etc. There are several highly qualified schools that fit that bill.

Personally, I prefer a method called zipline shooting. I put bullets down range until the threat is stopped. One bullet is not the answer.

Lastly, if a phrase has to be used I would prefer one like "stopping the threat", "stopping target" or "terminal point of impact". The only place that I know that works for sure is in the old brain bucket. Triple tap to the chest, if that doesn't work two more to the head. It only take a second or two. This may sound brutal but it is the truth.

IMO, look, handle, feel, and shoot until your comfortable. Only then are your truly ready for the threat. A brand or bullet isn't necessarily the answer.

[snapper]

1. Any gun is better than NO gun!
2. Reliable is more important than size of bullet!
3. Know how to shoot it!

[ronin]

Amen, brother...

[RkyMtn]

If you're planning on a head shot you are not being realistic. Good luck, I hope it works for you. The old failure drill is great practice, but there is a reason you put two in the chest BEFORE you put one in the head.

13.5 inches is the average adult torso, give or take. Thus, if a bullet looses it's energy at or around this depth it can be assumed that all kinetic energy from the bullet has been transferred to the target and not behind it. This is a good thing. (Some of the aforementioned would include not hitting a friendly behind the threat. See above.)

A one shot stop, for those who don't know, indicates one shot to stop forward progress. Evan Marshall and a handful of others have done much research on this. Data is readily available from police, military, and civilian encounters. Although the experts don’t always agree on the exact numbers they do always agree that some calibers are consistently better than others. Don’t take it personally, that’s just what the experts say. You can check for yourself.

It seems logical that someone looking for a self-defense piece would be interested in one that statistically has better results in the real world.

Stopping power has nothing to do with Hollywood movies, it's a term used in the real world by real tacticians. Any fool can see the difference between a .380 and a .45 with their eyeballs.

I understand that caliber choice is a very personal one. Ronin, I mean no disrespect. Facts are facts. If the fact is, for example, that you can only conceal a .32 ACP, that’s fine. Even a .22 lr is certainly much better than nothing. However, many things come into play when making that choice, and everyone needs as much information as possible.

[Strut10]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're planning on a head shot you are not being realistic. Good luck, I hope it works for you. The old failure drill is great practice, but there is a reason you put two in the chest BEFORE you put one in the head.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo!!

2 shots center mass..........then maybe you get creative. The head's a darn small target to hit. Add in poor lighting, movement, obstacles, return fire, and more adrenaline/panic than you could imagine and you have a very low-percentage proposition.

2 shots center mass

[ronin]

You missed what I just wrote...triple tap, (or more), to the chest...FIRST

It appears you missed what I originally wrote about a preference for the .45.

You also seem to have missed what I wrote about wound channel, penetration, large bullets, etc.

FWIW, I've done the research and everything I wrote is based on scientific research for the military and police. And, unlike most...from personal experience.

Lastly, I think I've been saying all along what you summed up in your last paragraph about personal choice.

I think you've been selective about what I've wrote or perhaps, simply want to argue. We seem to have the same information about large bullets v. smaller ones. I've simply tried to say that sometimes you have to know HOW to employ the smaller ones when that is what you have. I have also tried to dispell the myth that one shot stops are the norm and should be expected. They should not. Reliance on that notion is dangerous.

Anyway, I've obviously irritated you somewhat. I am sorry for that as it was not my intention.

[WNY_Whitetailer]

I'm back to the motto that any gun is better than no gun...Sure I would like to be able to conceal an XD 40 Sub-Compact or Glock model 27 when it is 90 out during the summer but that is not going to happen with a t-shirt and shorts on. I need something that I can stick in my pocket in a pocket holster...That's where the "little" guns come into play. 32ACP, 380 Auto, etc etc etc...May not be a 40, 357 Sig or a 45 but those calibers are better than nothing.

[Strut_Buster]

Maybe You should Consider the 500 S&W. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif Imagine the Shear terror you could strike into the heart of a target without even fireing a shot. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[ronin]

Actually, the sheer terror your lower back will complain of after one day of toting that big boy around...I still deperately want one, though!

[ronin]

Actually, the sheer terror your lower back will complain of after one day of toting that big boy around...I still deperately want one, though!

[Strut10]

[ QUOTE ]
Sure I would like to be able to conceal an XD 40 Sub-Compact or Glock model 27 when it is 90 out during the summer but that is not going to happen with a t-shirt and shorts on.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I'll beg to differ on this opinion. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I'm not huge or stocky or fat. I'm 6'2" and 195 lbs. My "constant companion" is a Glock 29 10MM in a $7.00 #15 Uncle Mike's nylon ITP holster. Shorts and a T-shirt and a 10MM...............nobody could look at me and tell you I was packing. If you told them I was packing, they couldn't tell you where I had it. As carry guns go, the Glock 29 is not a particularly dainty one. I also have carried a Glock 23, a Glock 27 and a Browning Hi-Power in the same manner with the same ease. http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Orion_70]

If it's a little gun you're looking for that's easily concealable, why not look at a derringer? Get a .357 or .44 mag derringer. You only get 2 shots, but they get the job done.

[ronin]

Actually, that can be a great idea and I know acouple of guys that do just that. But, they are very, very good.

The most recent, up to date, studies of gunfights show what RkyMtn said in regards to a gunfight beginning and the proximity to the threat, roughly arms length. But, they also show that even practiced, professional shooters often miss...sometimes with an entire magazine! Why does that happen?

The answer does not come down to a single factor but several of the most important seem to be as follows:

The fight starts close but becomes fluid with both parties separating for distance, cover, or both.

The blood pressure is going through the roof and that front sight post is often ignored. Even after tens of thousands of rounds down range.

Tunnel vision occurs instantly. The shooters' realm sphere of awareness is narrowed down to a tiny fraction of what it once was.

There are more but I think these three acount for most of the misses.

I don't completely trust myself to just two bullets...but thats me. I choose to have a minimum of 6-7 with a spare mag or speed loader, (revolver), close by.

It also comes down to what WNY Whitetailer said and that is any gun is better than no gun.

Geez, I know I'm long winded and I'm sorry for that! This is just one of those topics that I am deeply concerned about. Practice the stressful situations that might come about during a gun fight and choose your weapon accordingly. I rarely, if ever, target practice with a pistol. I practice using combat techniques only. Those techniques that I want muscle memory to take over if I get into a fight. That is the only reason I have a handgun to begin with.