I'll go ahead and mention it.

[slugshooter]

Surprisingly, noone has mentioned the fact that the Bush Administration paid Armstrong Williams $240,000 to "sell" the No Child Left Behind Act to the black community and they have paid Maggie Gallagher $21,500 and Mike McManus $10,000 to promote George Bush's beliefs as far as marriage goes. These activities have been ruled as propaganda and are illegal according to our laws to pay for them with our tax dollars, but somehow, the "liberal" media that hates Bush so much has failed to push this to the forefront and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that none of ya'll heard anything about this on Fox News. Regardless of what you think of Bush, he broke the law.period.

[TreeStandBowHunter]

[ QUOTE ]
Surprisingly, noone has mentioned the fact that the Bush Administration paid Armstrong Williams $240,000 to "sell" the No Child Left Behind Act to the black community and they have paid Maggie Gallagher $21,500 and Mike McManus $10,000 to promote George Bush's beliefs as far as marriage goes. These activities have been ruled as propaganda and are illegal according to our laws to pay for them with our tax dollars, but somehow, the "liberal" media that hates Bush so much has failed to push this to the forefront and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that none of ya'll heard anything about this on Fox News. Regardless of what you think of Bush, he broke the law.period.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know what, I don't care what political party you are from or who I voted for, they are all crooked one way or another. You do not get to become president without breaking some laws and you do not stay president for a 2nd term without breaking laws. I voted for Bush ONLY and I stress ONLY because I didn't like what Kerry stood for but Bush is just as crooked as Ted Kennedy http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

[fisherguy]

I saw that on the news and obviously it is not something to be proud of. But hey, i bet ya Clinton, Bush Sr., Reagan, Carter, ....and all the others did the same thing.

[Norm Sauceman]

I wonder what the Dem's did under tha table this past election year too? Two sided coin..they are ALL crooked in one form or another.

[OJR]

Yep, I saw it and don't like it one bit!

But the bottom line is that the world certainly isn't going to end because of it! Yes it was reported on Fox news and I watched the whole thing! Disgusting is what it is!!

[markyj987]

Let me start out by debunking the Maggie Gallagher thing. First of all, she SHOULD have disclosed that she did that type of work. However, she is primarily a marriage expert and not a journalist, though she does write a column. She was hired by the Bush Administration to do consulting work---she was NOT paid to write this or that in her column.

In her own words from the O'Reilly Factor:
"What actually happened is that in 2001, I was approached by HHS officials, who told me, Maggie, we don't have anyone here who's got the expertise. You have on the marriage and social science evidence on its importance. Can you do some brochures for our clients on what parents and why marriage matters? Can you write — help us draft an article for Wade Horn's signature on the social science evidence that marriage matters? And can you attend an in-house meeting with our regional managers..."

As I said, she should have known to disclose it, but she did nothing inherently wrong, so I will take her word for it.

-----------

Mike McManus was paid $10,000 to train marriage counselors. There is nothing wrong with that--or with a private citizen doing consulting work. However, like Gallagher, he SHOULD have disclosed it.

-----------

The two above LOOK bad, but really there is not much to those stories--digging in a little more shows they're barely newsworthy.

However, the Armstrong Williams thing is VERY troubling. They purchased air time during his show and aired propaganda and ads featuring Rod Paige.

His company was paid to produce propaganda ads for the DOE. That doesn't appear ethical at all. But what REALLY crossed the line is that part of the deal included live, on-air time with DOE officials---THAT is what's really wrong about this. Williams' syndicator has fired him.

Bush denied any knowledge of it. I really think Bush is an honest man and did not have any knowledge of it, but anyone in the DOE who did should be fired. Paige is already gone, but any leftover staff that knew should be fired.

Like I said, the Gallagher and McManus were simply poor judgement, but NOTHING blatantly unethical. What Armstrong did WAS unethical--and those responsible on the government side of it need to be axed.

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

I'm still uncertain if what Williams did was actually illegal. As to unethical, why would it be unethical to get paid to promote something that you actually believed in and supported? Seems to me it would be unethical if you were paid to promote something you DID NOT believe in??? Isn't this just another form of lobbying or advertising?

I'm open to arguments here if there's some flaw in my logic...

[ruttinbuc]

Speaking of DOE marky, did you attempt to shoot any?

[wtnhunt]

I did see something on this on the news not too longback. Pretty sure Mark is again right on track with what I heard. Dont think there was any laws broken in regards to this, just some attempts to make the situation look bad in an attempt to draw negative attention towards this administration.

[ParrotHead]

I'm still wondering exactly which law Bush broke????

[wtnhunt]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm still wondering exactly which law Bush broke????

[/ QUOTE ]

About the only laws I think he himself broke were back in his younger years, which he has admitted to.

[LifeNRA]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Surprisingly, noone has mentioned the fact that the Bush Administration paid Armstrong Williams $240,000 to "sell" the No Child Left Behind Act to the black community and they have paid Maggie Gallagher $21,500 and Mike McManus $10,000 to promote George Bush's beliefs as far as marriage goes. These activities have been ruled as propaganda and are illegal according to our laws to pay for them with our tax dollars, but somehow, the "liberal" media that hates Bush so much has failed to push this to the forefront and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that none of ya'll heard anything about this on Fox News. Regardless of what you think of Bush, he broke the law.period.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know what, I don't care what political party you are from or who I voted for, they are all crooked one way or another. You do not get to become president without breaking some laws and you do not stay president for a 2nd term without breaking laws. I voted for Bush ONLY and I stress ONLY because I didn't like what Kerry stood for but Bush is just as crooked as Ted Kennedy http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

What about the 14 million Kerry still has from his campain???? Hmmmmmmmmmmm, wonder what he will be doing with this money??? I wish now I would have not deleted that email! GRRRRRRRRRRRRR
http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[slugshooter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm still wondering exactly which law Bush broke????

[/ QUOTE ]

About the only laws I think he himself broke were back in his younger years, which he has admitted to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bush's admissions went something along the lines of this " When I was young and foolish I did young and foolish things." Well, you know what, I did foolish things when I was young and so did everyone else, that admission is more along the lines of " I tried it and didn't like it. And I didn't inhale." That was a political admission. An admission would be " Yes, I did snort cocaine, I got high as a kite, but I wouldn't recommend it and I know I was wrong for doing it." or even better " Yes, I was a lush and got a DUI in Maine but it was covered up. " Saying you did foolish things when you were young is an admission of having a normal childhood.

[markyj987]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm still uncertain if what Williams did was actually illegal. As to unethical, why would it be unethical to get paid to promote something that you actually believed in and supported? Seems to me it would be unethical if you were paid to promote something you DID NOT believe in??? Isn't this just another form of lobbying or advertising?

I'm open to arguments here if there's some flaw in my logic...

[/ QUOTE ]

What Williams did was not illegal at all. It was unethical because he was paid to interview certain individuals by the DOE and did NOT disclose that to his listeners. I don't offend easily, but as someone who listens to a TON of talk radio, I'm very upset and think it was a betrayal of his listeners' trust.

I'm honestly not sure if the Department of Education broke any laws, but I do not think they did. If what they did is not illegal, it SHOULD be. The government should NOT be in the business of peddling ideas using our tax dollars--whether or not the ideas are right in my opinion. Government play a vital role in giving information to the public, even rightfully so in some cases. However, to use the air waves as they did with Armstrong Williams was an abuse of power.

Democrat or Republican, I don't care....heads should roll for what happened with this.

[markyj987]

[ QUOTE ]
Speaking of DOE marky, did you attempt to shoot any?

[/ QUOTE ]

The only two I saw were borderline for range and uphill from me and wouldn't be a safe shot. In a word, my season....sucked. At least the weather was nice though...lol

[slugshooter]

Paying to promote an agenda with tax dollars is propaganda and illegal.

[oldksnarc]

If you get a chance watch "The Clinton Chronicles." Then call Bush crooked.

[ParrotHead]

[ QUOTE ]
Paying to promote an agenda with tax dollars is propaganda and illegal.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this were indeed true - every state or local gov't agency that ran an advertement promoting themselves would be in violation of this "illegal" act you're proclaiming.

Think about all the federal programs that have promoted it's service and where the money actually came from......ummmmm....that would be taxes.

What about the Navy, Army, National Guard and Marines? They promote their agendy via race cars that cost tax payers millions of dollars.

Again....what law was broken by the President or his Administration by promoting this or any agenda? I'll go ahead and make this easy for you....there is no law that prevents this or makes it illegal.

[slugshooter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Paying to promote an agenda with tax dollars is propaganda and illegal.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this were indeed true - every state or local gov't agency that ran an advertement promoting themselves would be in violation of this "illegal" act you're proclaiming.

Think about all the federal programs that have promoted it's service and where the money actually came from......ummmmm....that would be taxes.

What about the Navy, Army, National Guard and Marines? They promote their agendy via race cars that cost tax payers millions of dollars.

Again....what law was broken by the President or his Administration by promoting this or any agenda? I'll go ahead and make this easy for you....there is no law that prevents this or makes it illegal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tell that to the GAO. the Government Accounting Office, they are the one's who say it is illegal. They might know a little more about it than any of us.

[wtnhunt]

[ QUOTE ]
Tell that to the GAO. the Government Accounting Office, they are the one's who say it is illegal. They might know a little more about it than any of us.

[/ QUOTE ]

If what you say is true, then not only the president, but anyone else who has done this should be having charges brought against them. Just dont see that ever happening. This GAO sounds about like the IRS. Another useless misinformed group of idiots drawing checks off our tax dollars http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif.

[slugshooter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tell that to the GAO. the Government Accounting Office, they are the one's who say it is illegal. They might know a little more about it than any of us.

[/ QUOTE ]

If what you say is true, then not only the president, but anyone else who has done this should be having charges brought against them. Just dont see that ever happening. This GAO sounds about like the IRS. Another useless misinformed group of idiots drawing checks off our tax dollars http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

Made a typo, it's the Government Accountability Office, cause even King George and his lackeys have to be held accountable for what they do, wonderful thing about our government, checks and balances.

[slugshooter]

From USAToday.com
[ QUOTE ]

Williams' contract was part of a $1 million deal with Ketchum that produced "video news releases" designed to look like news reports. The Bush administration used similar releases last year to promote its Medicare prescription drug plan, prompting a scolding from the Government Accountability Office, which called them an illegal use of taxpayers' dollars.

[/ QUOTE ]

[wtnhunt]

[ QUOTE ]
wonderful thing about our government, checks and balances.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, we need more people employed by the govt to keep everything in check allright http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif. Pay 20 people with tax dollars to do the job of 3 or 4 http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif, then pay 4 or 5 more to make sure they are doing their job right http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif, then on and on until we have hundreds of thousands of useless federal employees drawing checks http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif coming out of yours and my pockets http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif.

Anyone who has ever had to deal with the idiots at the IRS knows exacly what I am talking about. What a waste.

Back on the subject at hand as to whether or not the activity was illegal. I watched part of an interview quite a while back I believe on the today show about this with the black guy involved and they had some others people who were also talked with in the interview, and from what I gathered there was no illegal activity despite the claims against those who are being acused in this.

[slugshooter]

So basically the people involved were interviewed and they claim they did nothing illegal so it must not be. And the GAO said they were illegal, but we all know, and lets be honest here, if it were John Kerry as President or Clinton you would be out for blood and impeachment.

[wtnhunt]

Sluggo, was not just the armstrong guy they interviewed that I watched, but was also some members of both parties, who were also asked questions about this. It was kind of interesting, but they all seemed to agree that there was no illegal activity.

I know for certain that if Kerry and some of the other goons out there really thought there was a case in this and that there was any FACTUAL supportable evidence I am sure an impeachment process or some type of legal action would have already begun. Since it has not, well you figure it out.

[ParrotHead]

The GAO? You're getting your legal advise from the GAO?

While I don;t condone spending tax payers money on much of anything whether it's Clinton, Kerry, Bush or Mickey Mouse in the White House I can't for the life of me see where it's breaking a law and to date I've asked and no one has been able to tell me what law was broken.

Unethical? Maybe - but ethics in this group can be wide spread. Illegal? Again, show me the law that prevents this.

[stevebeilgard]

news clips and accusations so far. if proven true, i'll step forward and criticize bush. wrong is wrong. but the dems will never critizice clinton. even you think it o.k. to "just get a b.j. " in the oval office. hey, you must be progressive....

[slugshooter]

[ QUOTE ]
news clips and accusations so far. if proven true, i'll step forward and criticize bush. wrong is wrong. but the dems will never critizice clinton. even you think it o.k. to "just get a b.j. " in the oval office. hey, you must be progressive....

[/ QUOTE ]

Never said it was OK for a married person to do that, but it is not illegal and certainly not impeachable.

[Gator]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
news clips and accusations so far. if proven true, i'll step forward and criticize bush. wrong is wrong. but the dems will never critizice clinton. even you think it o.k. to "just get a b.j. " in the oval office. hey, you must be progressive....

[/ QUOTE ]

Never said it was OK for a married person to do that, but it is not illegal and certainly not impeachable.

[/ QUOTE ]

But slug, it is punishable under the UCMJ, you know, the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and he WAS at the time, The President of the United States, and our Commander-in-Chief. Had a servicemember done that, and gotten caught, they could have been punished for it. Something to think about there!

[slugshooter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
news clips and accusations so far. if proven true, i'll step forward and criticize bush. wrong is wrong. but the dems will never critizice clinton. even you think it o.k. to "just get a b.j. " in the oval office. hey, you must be progressive....

[/ QUOTE ]

Never said it was OK for a married person to do that, but it is not illegal and certainly not impeachable.

[/ QUOTE ]

But slug, it is punishable under the UCMJ, you know, the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and he WAS at the time, The President of the United States, and our Commander-in-Chief. Had a servicemember done that, and gotten caught, they could have been punished for it. Something to think about there!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it is punishable under the UCMJ and I know more than a few that were reprimanded under that particular jurisdiction, my feelings against that are a whole other topic. Regardless of him being the " Commander in Chief" The President is a civilian, he is not a member of the armed forces and thus is not subject to the rules of the UCMJ. Our government was set up to make sure that civilians ran our military on the sole idea of not wanting military warlords taking over the country. There is no law against having an affair in civilian life, regardless of profession. Was it low down, yeah, I don't condone anyone having an affair, but trying to ruin someone over it is worse.

[ParrotHead]

Perjury is against the law - how do you feel about that one?

[Gator]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
news clips and accusations so far. if proven true, i'll step forward and criticize bush. wrong is wrong. but the dems will never critizice clinton. even you think it o.k. to "just get a b.j. " in the oval office. hey, you must be progressive....

[/ QUOTE ]

Never said it was OK for a married person to do that, but it is not illegal and certainly not impeachable.

[/ QUOTE ]

But slug, it is punishable under the UCMJ, you know, the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and he WAS at the time, The President of the United States, and our Commander-in-Chief. Had a servicemember done that, and gotten caught, they could have been punished for it. Something to think about there!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it is punishable under the UCMJ and I know more than a few that were reprimanded under that particular jurisdiction, my feelings against that are a whole other topic. Regardless of him being the " Commander in Chief" The President is a civilian, he is not a member of the armed forces and thus is not subject to the rules of the UCMJ. Our government was set up to make sure that civilians ran our military on the sole idea of not wanting military warlords taking over the country. There is no law against having an affair in civilian life, regardless of profession. Was it low down, yeah, I don't condone anyone having an affair, but trying to ruin someone over it is worse.

[/ QUOTE ]

But slug, since he is the Commander-in-Chief, is he not supposed to "LEAD BY EXAMPLE"? That's what personnel in a leadership position are supposed to do, right?

[wtnhunt]

Perjury is a pretty serious offense. Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but is it not in most cases normally an offense that results in jail time?

[carbonhunter]

[ QUOTE ]
Perjury is a pretty serious offense. Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but is it not in most cases normally an offense that results in jail time?

[/ QUOTE ]

Once again we are still stuck in the 90's good to see we have a grip on the problems the country is faceing today

yes purjury is a crime. one that has been commited by more than one president in the past and one that Im shure we will see in the future.

I dont care what clinton did with some women. Clintons waste of human life in somolia will be where my distaste for the man will always lie. I think we could come up with some real crappy stuff clinton did during before and after his days in Office sleeping around was prob. the least of his problems.

BUT WHO CARES!!!!
it is all over and well documented.

[wtnhunt]

Yep Aaron, you are right that is in the past. Discussing it now while we are bored is nothing more than useless conversation.

Unfortunately looking into the future I am afraid another Clinton is going to be attempting to make her way into the White House.

[ParrotHead]

Now here's where I have a problem with your statement. You don't care what Clinton did but you do care what Bush does. There's still a double-sided view going on here....

[carbonhunter]

[ QUOTE ]
Now here's where I have a problem with your statement. You don't care what Clinton did but you do care what Bush does. There's still a double-sided view going on here....

[/ QUOTE ]

past and present is far from a two sided view......and I dont think I've mentioned bush in a month. I do care what bush does right now if what he did was illegal than he should be called out for it just as clinton was. But no, currently i couldnt care less about clinton.

[stevebeilgard]

wrong, carbonhunter. purjury is lying under oath. while i agree that alll presidents have lied to us, only ONE lide under oath. clinton committed purjury, which is a jailable offence. after pleading GUILTY to purjury, clinton was left in office (not impeached), and given no sentence. at the same time, 118 attorneys were in jail for lying under oath about having sex. in short, same crime by same people. all of their requests for clemency were denied. thus, clinton proved that he was, indeed, above the law. isn't true history wonderful???

[slugshooter]

Clinton was impeached, he was found innocent, if he were found guilty then he would have been forced out of office. Impeachment only refers to the trial that is indertaken, not being forced out of office.

[wtnhunt]

Yeah, I actually thought he was found guilty, but was not impeached, up until somone in here posted a link and I read for myself that he was in fact impeached, but got to remain in office http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif.

I always thought to be impeached meant he would have had to left office. I however thought and unless I am mistaken am pretty sure that he was in fact found guilty of the perjury charge http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif.

[carbonhunter]

[ QUOTE ]
wrong, carbonhunter. purjury is lying under oath. while i agree that alll presidents have lied to us, only ONE lide under oath. clinton committed purjury, which is a jailable offence. after pleading GUILTY to purjury, clinton was left in office (not impeached), and given no sentence. at the same time, 118 attorneys were in jail for lying under oath about having sex. in short, same crime by same people. all of their requests for clemency were denied. thus, clinton proved that he was, indeed, above the law. isn't true history wonderful???

[/ QUOTE ]


Uhh?? i know what perjury is.....but what is the rest of that blather???

And I really doubt that Clinton was the first president to lie under oath
But let me ask you this when your the president of the united states does it matter if you lied under oath or just lied??? One is illigal and one isnt but aside from that, I dont see much differance between the two.

[wtnhunt]

Sorry Aaron, but I dont think there is any excuse for lying under oath. Lying is wrong any way you look at it, but going into a court and knowingly putting your hand over the bible and swearing to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and then not telling the truth in my eyes is worse than just trying to hide the facts from your wife or from the public by deception.

Not that there is a good liar, but if somone will lie under oath, they are the worst kind of liar out there.

[carbonhunter]

Hmm so now we rank liers, I dont think so a lie is a lie.
That is the problem with many things today....one person kills someone and they get a year, another commits the same crime and gets the death penalty. When you are president of the USA, a lie to the american people is a lie no matter what context it was under.

I dont think there is any excuse for lieing under oath and i had no intention of making it sound that way. A lie is a lie, If we are going to impeach one president for it we should impeach all the others that do it as well.

[stevebeilgard]

sluggo. you really need to study history. clinton was not found innocent. in fact, he pled guilty to lying under oath. history, man. read some of it. it's all in the national archives.

while it it wrong, everyone lies. but lying under oath is a felony. that is why clinton was impeaches. no revisionist liberal history lessons, please,

[carbonhunter]

while it it wrong, everyone lies. but lying under oath is a felony. that is why clinton was impeaches. no revisionist liberal history lessons, please,

----------------------------------------------------------------------

So you lie??? May the lord have mercy on ya then. A president lieing to his constituants should be a felony regardless of the context.......

You seem to think your a quick as a wip, but i wouldnt go judging people when you cant spell impeached.......
night peaches

[TreeStandBowHunter]

[ QUOTE ]




You seem to think your a quick as a wip, but i wouldnt go judging people when you cant spell impeached.......

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif OUCH



[/ QUOTE ]night peaches

[/ QUOTE ]
http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.realtree.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[buckee]

[ QUOTE ]
So you lie??? May the lord have mercy on ya then

[/ QUOTE ]

look who's judging people now eh
[ QUOTE ]
You seem to think your a quick as a wip, but i wouldnt go judging people when you cant spell impeached.......

[/ QUOTE ]

quit being a nit picker carbon.

Seems like your trying to get something going in here from the last few posts of yours that I've read.

[wtnhunt]

Aaron, was not trying to imply anything about what you were or are saying bud. I agrea a lie is a lie, but is it not more wrong to do it while under oath? I do also agree with what you are saying abotu other offenses and not being equally just punishment in many cases. Not that I am "ranking liars" as you suggest. I personally despise a liar, but think that lying under oath is worse than just telling someone a bold face lie. Maybe I am nuts, but the idea of taking an oath in the eyes of the God and knowingly not telling the truth to me just seems like it is worse. Of course there is a difference in the "white lies" such as the deer and fishing stories we all tell. Those are innocent, it is the lies that are intended to decieve that I have a problem with.

btw s is next to d on the keyboard, easy mistake for any decent typist. I have accidentally mispelled words hitting those keys for each other many times while typing many times myself. Maybe your remark was in good humor, maybe not.

[ParrotHead]

[ QUOTE ]
i agree 100% The Bush administration has screwed this country up big time!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh please do tell - give us some enlightened vision to your analogy of "screwed this country up big time", I can't wait to read it.

[buckee]

You wanna see how Liberals screw things up ...come to Canada.