There are some deer left in NY after all...

[western NY bowhunter]

Well...we went for a ride before dark tonight to try out the new binocs that my dad got for x-mas and ended up seeing a total of 73 deer in a 2 1/2-3 mile stretch around my house. It makes ya wonder where they all were a few weeks ago ! I couldn't believe it...one field had 28 deer and another just down the road had 21. All appeared to does/fawns unless most of the bucks have shed...which I doubt. I was surprised that we didn't see any bucks in the bunch because I know that there should be a pile of bucks in this area, including several nice 8-pts. or better that made it through season. The landowner who owns most of the thick bedding cover in the area (250-300 acres of thick, nasty swamp) designated his property into a "deer sanctuary" before season this year and didn't let a soul on it all season long. Maybe I'll have to take out the spotlight one of these nights when its not too cold out and see want comes into these hayfields after dark. Anyways, just thought that I'd let my fellow NYer's know that contrary to what everyone's been saying (after the worst deer season in recent memory) that there are in fact still deer roaming around in the state.

[Doc]

Yeah but if you have large blocks of area that are not hunted, why would you be surprised that there would be a lot of deer left in that area? An area has to be hunted in order to be over-harvested

By the way, what part of western NY did you see all these deer? I'll be looking for some new deer hunting grounds next year.

Doc

[dogdoc]

those deer are smart---they have a built in calender to let them know when deer season is over!

todd

[western NY bowhunter]

Doc,

I'm from NE Steuben County. Believe me...you don't have to tell me what hunting pressure is. This area is amoung the hardest hunted in the entire state (over the past several years the deer harvest in WMU's 8P /8R where I hunt have averaged between 16-17per sq. mile). On opening morning this year my uncle stopped counting gun shots at 150 and said that there were probably several dozen more after that (this was all before 9:00). The deer around here definatley know where their place on the food chain is . This is the first year that the aforementioned area was put off-limits to hunting. Hopefully, with this little bit of protection, we'll start seeing some older age class bucks in the area within a year or two.

[turkeygirl]

I know there are deer still here, in 9N at least. I saw a deer while out small game hunting the other day and also deer tracks. Can't wait for the shed season to start.

[western NY bowhunter]

TG,

I hear ya about being ready for shed hunting season to get here. All that I've been thinking about since the end of deer season has been about getting out there and trying to find some antlers. It doesn't help much that a friend of my dad's has some land were there is a bunch of standing corn and he told my dad today at the store that he's seen several really nice bucks around since the end of muzzeloading season, including a couple of real monsters, one of which has a long droptine! Last year was my first year of actually going out looking for sheds and ended up with 8 of them, including a 61" 5-pt. side and 3 other single sides that should have been 50" or better 5-pt. sides if it hadn't have been for broken tines. I would sure like to find a nice matched set or two this year. I thought that it was just as exciting for me to find a nice shed as it was actually deer hunting. When do you usually start looking? I'm planning on probably waiting to around March, but depending on how much snow we get I might sneak out a little earlier if I can.

[western NY bowhunter]

Adkhunter,

That's right...Steuben County, one of the hardest hunted counties (if not the hardest hunted county) in the state. It's true that Steuben County currently has around 30,000 acres actively enrolled in QDM practices, but the county is nearly 1400 sq. miles in area which is close to 900,000 acres (granted that I don't know how much of it is actually concidered hunting land). So, contrary to what you read in the hunting magazines, only a very small portion of the available hunting land in the county is being intensively managed or managed at all...unfortunately. Most of the QDM land is located in the western portion of the county. In fact, I don't know of any "official" QDM properties within miles of my house. A vast majority of the hunters around here are still in the "shoot the first legal buck" you see mentality. There certainly aren't many "sacred" deer santuaries around here that I'm aware of.

I have no idea how many deer per sq. mile there are in WMU's 8P / 8R during pre-season, but as I stated...the state claims that the average deer take in the WMU's usually (not this year) averages out to around 16-17 deer killed PSM (usually between 5-8 bucks PSM). I don't know how accurate these figures are, but I do know that between my party of hunters we usually take between 25-30 deer a year (12-15 bucks usually) and there are 2 other local parties that usually kill anywhere from 35 to 40+ deer a year (usually 15-18 bucks) all within a 5 sq. mile area. That's alot of deer and alot of nice yearling bucks being taken out of the herd every year! I have no clue how many deer are killed each year in this same 5-mile block by all the rest of the hunters. That doesn't sound like too good of QDM pratices to me.

[Doc]

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Anyways, just thought that I'd let my fellow NYer's know that contrary to what everyone's been saying (after the worst deer season in recent memory) that there are in fact still deer roaming around in the state.

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So what exactly are you saying? Are you saying that based on your observations along a 3 mile stretch of road, that there are plenty of deer across the state and that people who are claiming shortages don't really know what they are talking about?

I think the DEC is being very lax in your area. Perhaps they ought to double or triple the number of permits so that you too can put the "hunt" back in your hunting.

Doc

[wtnhunt]

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those deer are smart---they have a built in calender to let them know when deer season is over!

todd

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Sure seems that way sometimes.

[western NY bowhunter]

Adkhunter,

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If hardest hunted means that there are more hunters per sq/mile than any other county you might be right but to me hunting hard has nothing to do with numbers.


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I'm strictly referring to # hunters PSM...not how much harder it is to kill a deer in certain areas when compared to others. I'll admit that I've done the vast majority of my deer hunting around these parts so I have no grounds to base such comparison on

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There is only one reason that Steuben County has had so many deer for so long....either the state is totally mismanaging the county or that QDM land offers does a great place to run.

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I agree...there have been WAY too many deer around here for WAY too long. But,the reason for the explosion in the deer pop. that we've experienced around here over the past 2 decades has nothing to do with land being enrolled in QDM programs. Like I mentioned earlier, there are NONE that I'm aware of in this area. Rather, the increase in deer numbers is a direct result of alot of the old dairy farms in the area being shut down and alot of the open agricultural fields are now grown up into expanses of thick brush. The deer around here have more escape cover as a result...and it has nothing to do with QDM programs. In certain areas around here the deer do have large tracts of property to hide in and in other area they are able to retreat onto properties where the landowners have put their properties off limits to hunting. I agree that areas like this give the deer a great place to go during hunting season and bucks have a better chance of making it to maturity under these conditions, but it still has nothing to do with QDM being done by local "hunting landowners."

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So why so many larger horned bucks?


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The more recruitment of bucks that you have in an area, the better the chances are that a small percentage of them will live until the magic trophy age of 3 or 4 yrs. Also, we do have some fairly good genetics floating around in the deer herd. Ill bet that on average, the age structure of your bucks out there is far better than it is around here.

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Sacred areas to hide.

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I'm a little confused...are the sacred areas a result of people creating QDM sanctuaries (we don't have any of them around) or are these scared areas large tracts of land that offer lots of cover to deer (isn't there alot of that in the Adirondacks?) or are these areas properties that are put off limits to hunting because the landowners don't want anyone hunting their land?

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Doc, that is an interesting thought.....that is having fewer deer in an area and comparing that to the term "hunt"
I have for years hunted the Adirondacks almost exclusively during the first to mid part of the season.
I alway said that hunting the southern zone ,even in my area, was like hunting a dog in a town or city.This meaning all you need to do is go in the woods and shoot one....kinda like walking to your neighbors to see their dog. It is that easy as compared to hunting some areas of the "Dacks"



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So you hunt areas with low deer#'s where the deer have a lot of area to hide in...I image that that can be very, very tough conditions to hunt in. I've heard that there are deer in the Adirondacks that have never seen a hunter? Honestly, I can't even image hunting under these conditions. However, what makes you think that its no challenge to kill a deer that has been hunted hard everyday of season? Lots of hunting pressure = nocturnal and overly cautious deer that definately are easy to "hunt". Let me tell you...hunting these "easy" deer will quickly humble you.

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Surely the DEC has not been doing their part or the complaining landowners out that way say..."there are too many deer out here!".... aren't letting enough "hunters" "hunt".


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That's the big problem throughout the state...how can you hunt and kill deer that you don't have access to? What the DEC does around here to compensate for this is hand out a ton of nuisance permits to those landowners that have too many deer, yet don't give anyone permission to hunt their properties. Like you said, its definately not a good system and could use some serious revisions



Doc,

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So what exactly are you saying? Are you saying that based on your observations along a 3 mile stretch of road, that there are plenty of deer across the state and that people who are claiming shortages don't really know what they are talking about?

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I'm not saying this at all. This has definately been the worst, weirdest season that I've ever seen in these parts. The story of the year around here was that there was plenty of sign in the woods but the deer that were making it remained elusive. I was just surprised to see that many deer in such a small area after experiencing such a pitiful deer season.

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I think the DEC is being very lax in your area. Perhaps they ought to double or triple the number of permits so that you too can put the "hunt" back in your hunting.

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Not really...I don't think that giving everyone 3 or 4 doe permits is being too lax. There's as much "hunt" in the hunting around here as anywhere in the state I promise you. Hard hunted deer = hard to kill deer.


Lampliter,

Where are you from in Steuben County? I'm form NE Steuben...a few miles from the Yates County border.

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Last year the actual buck take in 8P was 4.8 psm and 8R was 5.0 psm. This was above the objective of 4.2 psm. Where I hunt in 8W the 2003 buck take was projected at 3.5 psm.

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That's what I said, its usually between 5-6 bucks psm. According to a New York Fish & Game magazine I have...8P had the highest buck psm take in the state in 2002 at 8 bucks psm. So, that's where the high figure of 8 comes from

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I can tell you that this year the total deer take will be way down in my neck of the woods.

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MINE TOO...

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All of Steuben County does not have the deer numbers reported by Western.

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Probably not...but I'm not gonna a lie and say that there were no deer around here before season when there were. I have to say that there appearred not to be quite as many deer as I've seen in the past few years...but they definately weren't scarce. On one farm by my house I saw over 30 different bucks this summer! I think that they only killed one scrub there during bow season and none during gun, although they saw and shot at a couple of nice busks. Where did they all go to during season this year (I realize that they scatter out in the fall when the bachelor groups break up)? Its a mystery for sure.

[western NY bowhunter]

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It is too bad there aren't more deer up north, but don't try to drag the southern zone down with you.

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The way I look at the situation is like this...It's a trade-off between low population densitys with low levels of hunting pressure in the northern zone as compared to higher population levels with far more hunting pressure in the southern zone. Hunters in both zones much face there own challenges when it comes to harvesting their deer. What's harder to hunt...a big northwoods bucks in the vase expanses of the Adirondacks, or a big buck in the hard hunted southern tier where few bucks ever make it to the second year? I don't know...everone's got their own opinions on the matter.

[western NY bowhunter]

Adkhunter,

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Charles Alsheimer lives in Steuben County and has over 140 acres that is sacred...and yes to the rest of your questions...no one hunts it for any reason..not even him. He has neighbors that have that "sacred area" as well.

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I am very familiar with Mr. Alsheimer (he lives about 15-20 min west of me)and his QDM methods. I have all of his books and really enjoy his articles in deer & deer hunting. His sanctuary concept is a great idea if you have the property to do it on...which I unfortunately don't. Mr. Alsheimer heads up the "Steuben County Quality Whitetail Group" which hosts an annual "antler round-up" every winter to promote QDM in the county. I thinks that its slowly catching on with some of the local hunters and landowners...but not at a pace where I'd like to see it at. I've been to his seminars a few times and they're really informational and it's pretty neat to see some of the big local racks being brought in.

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What is a 4 year old.....haven't even heard of someone shooting one in the last 10 or so years....if it's got any calcium depostis on it's head around here the locals wack it!

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They're not to common around here either believe me...the only time I see them is when I'm out with the spotlight during the summer trying to get some velvet footage. Any legal buck with antlers 3" is usually hammerred by most hunters here too. It's too bad because we could grow some slammers around here too.

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Maybe lot of predation though that can put them on edge every day....

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It sure does...especially when those predators are carrying 12-ga shotguns!

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As far as hunting pressure causing deer to go nocturnal....nocturnal or not...they still exist in their environment..you just have to know where they go!!! There is an answer as to where these deer went that you saw later in the season...I just don't have it here. We can take reasonable stabs at it all day long but without putting a foot there...it's tough. Sometimes it's a small area of less tha a few acres tha house 10-20 deer during the daylight hours...the answer is there if the deer numbers exist.


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I have a good idea where a majority of the deer I saw the other night have been. Like you said though, as long as you can't set foot on the property it doesn't really matter how many deer are in an area. These particular deer do have a sanctuary in that the guy that owns wants no one deer hunitng on the property. However, he's just another misinformed anti...and has no idea what QDM stands for.

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I bet I could answer that..honestly but I would rather you take up the challenge and try to humble me with the hunting in your area... If that is an offer...I'm game!!!

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I really wish I could man...unfortunately, I don't have any property off my own and my family's hunting area is dwindling little by little every season as it is . I'll probably be looking for new hunting ground of my own within a few years anyways. As far as the whole humbling thing goes...I wasn't directing this statement towards you or anyone else on this board in particular. I was just making a broad statement and was referring to hunting mature bucks, not just any ole' deer. Mature bucks that have endured brutal winters, hosts of natural predation and have experienced several hunting seasons are survivors and are hard to kill no matter where they're found!