Another Atheism Question

[markyj987]

There's quite an interesting discussion ongoing in the other atheism thread, but I have something else that kind of relates to that topic. Let me preface it by saying a few things first.

1. I don't hate athiests.
2. Yes, I do care about and pray for them.
3. No, I do not think they are bad people--and think many have made good contributions to society.

My question is about being offended. Why, if you believe there is no God...no life after this, are you so offended by Christianity?

Am I making a generalization here? Are there just some atheists that are militant in their belief and go out of their way to get offended by "one Nation under God" and "In God We Trust"?

Why would atheists even care one way or the other?

Don't get me wrong--I'm not chastising anyone for being offended by religion being shoved down their throat like a lot of street corner preachers and door-knockers do. That even offends many Christians. I'm talking about the more normal, day-to-day, status quo stuff here. Do any of the atheists here really find that offensive?

To organize and unite under the idea of removing the idea of God from the public square, does that not make atheism a religion in itself?

I don't want anyone to take what I'm asking the wrong way. However, in the interest of full disclosure (LOL), I have to admit that I do have a problem with those who choose to get offended by Christianity. I find it ridiculous. I would think, with how long life is being so finite to atheists that they may be more focused on other more important things?

I've tried to pose this in as non-judgemental way as possible...so everyone, please check your emotions at the door on this one. I'm just trying to "get it" and not bash anyone. (Trust me, if I was bashing anything, I would do it in a much more obvious way. For reference, feel free to see any of my posts about public education in Milwaukee... )

Edit: Forgot to mention this...that I did see Racksie's post in the other thread...and know he's not offended by Christianity. Go Racskie! lol

[HuntingInMaine]

[ QUOTE ]
To organize and unite under the idea of removing the idea of God from the public square, does that not make atheism a religion in itself?


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not an atheist, nor am I what others here would consider a Christian, but I don't see where your above example would create a religion. It would be just an organization, wouldn't it?

[ QUOTE ]
I would think, with how long life is being so finite to atheists that they may be more focused on other more important things?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe these people who take on the cause of removing religion from daily life think it is an important thing they are doing. They just look at things differently then you do. We all have our own "causes". For example, I feel very strongly about equal rights for women in all situations and there are very few here that feel the same way. I think what I do to further my cause is very important, but many others would think it is just a big waste of time and energy.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just trying to "get it" and not bash anyone

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you did a good job of not bashing anyone, but if you want to "get it", you have to look at it from an atheist's perspective!

Just my opinion...do with it what you want!

[horst]

Actually I dont think the athiests are as responsible for nearly as much of this stuff as you guys think.Its people of other cultures and faiths that are raising the most fuss about this stuff.Then you get groups like the ACLU who are more then happy to pick this up and run with it once its set in motion.Im not saying athiests arent resposible for any of it but I think they get blamed for a lot more then they really do.For the most part thier really not as outspoken about it as other religions are, they take much greater offense to it then most athiests ever will.

[buckee]

The Atheist Professor

"LET ME EXPLAIN the problem science has with Jesus Christ." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand. "You're a Christian, aren't you, son?" "Yes, sir." "So you believe in God?" "Absolutely." "Is God good?" "Sure! God's good." "Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?" "Yes." "Are you good or evil?" "The Bible says I'm evil."
The professor grins knowingly. "Ahh! THE BIBLE!" He considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help them? Would you try?" "Yes sir, I would." "So you're good...!" "I wouldn't say that." "Why not say that? You would help a sick and maimed person if you could... in fact most of us would if we could...God doesn't." No answer.

"He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?" No answer

The elderly man is sympathetic. "No, you can't, can you?" He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. In philosophy, you have to go easy with the new ones. "Let's start again young fella. Is God good?" "Er... Yes." "Is Satan good?" "No." "Where does Satan come from?" The student falters. "From... God..."

"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he?" The elderly man runs his bony fingers through his thinning hair and turns to the smirking, student audience. "I think we're going to have a lot of fun this semester, ladies and gentlemen." He turns back to the Christian. "Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?" "Yes, sir." "Evil's everywhere, isn't it? Did God make everything?" "Yes." "Who created evil?" No answer

"Is there sickness in this world? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All the terrible things - do they exist in this world?" The student squirms on his feet. "Yes." "Who created them? " No answer The professor suddenly shouts at his student. "WHO CREATED THEM? TELL ME, PLEASE!" The professor closes in for the kill and climbs into the Christian's face. In a still small voice: "God created all evil, didn't He, son?" No answer

The student tries to hold the steady, experienced gaze and fails. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace the front of the classroom like an aging panther. The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues, "How is it that this God is good if He created all evil throughout all time?" The professor swishes his arms around to encompass the wickedness of the world. "All the hatred, the brutality, all the pain, all the torture, all the death and ugliness and all the suffering created by this good God is all over the world, isn't it, young man?" No answer.

"Don't you see it all over the place? Huh? "Don't you?" The professor leans into the student's face again and whispers, "Is God good?" No answer. "Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?" The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor. I do." The old man shakes his head sadly. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen God?" "No, sir. I've never seen Him." "Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?" "No, sir. I have not." "Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus... in fact, do you have any sensory perception of your God whatsoever?" No answer

"Answer me, please." "No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't." "You're AFRAID... you haven't ?" "No, sir." "Yet you still believe in him?" "...yes..." "That takes FAITH!" the professor smiles sagely at the underling. "According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son? Where is your God now?" The student doesn't answer. "Sit down, please." The Christian sits...Defeated.

Another Christian raises his hand. "Professor, may I address the class?" The professor turns and smiles. "Ah, another Christian in the vanguard! Come, come, young man. Speak some proper wisdom to the gathering." The Christian looks around the room. "Some interesting points you are making, sir. Now I've got a question for you. Is there such a thing as heat?" "Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat." "Is there such a thing as cold?" "Yes, son, there's cold too." "No, sir, there isn't." The professor's grin freezes. The room suddenly goes very cold.

The second Christian continues. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than 458. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it." Silence. A pin drops somewhere in the classroom.

"Is there such a thing as darkness, professor?" "That's a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn't darkness? What are you getting at...?" "So you say there is such a thing as darkness?" "Yes..." "You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something, it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker and give me a jar of it. Can you...give me a jar of darker darkness, professor?"

Despite himself, the professor smiles at the young effrontery before him. This will indeed be a good semester. "Would you mind telling us what your point is, young man?" "Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with and so your conclusion must be in error...." The professor goes toxic. "Flawed...? How dare you...!" "Sir, may I explain what I mean?" The class is all ears. "Explain... oh, explain..." The professor makes an admirable effort to regain control. Suddenly he is affability itself. He waves his hand to silence the class, for the student to continue.

"You are working on the premise of duality," the Christian explains. "That, for example, there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science cannot even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism but has never seen, much less fully understood them. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, merely the absence of it."

The young man holds up a newspaper he takes from the desk of a neighbor who has been reading it. "Here is one of the most disgusting tabloids this country hosts, professor. Is there such a thing as immorality?" "Of course there is, now look..." "Wrong again, sir. You see, immorality is merely the absence of morality. Is there such a thing as injustice? No. Injustice is the absence of justice. Is there such a thing as evil?" The Christian pauses. "Isn't evil the absence of good?" The professor's face has turned an alarming color. He is so angry he is temporarily speechless.

The Christian continues. "If there is evil in the world, professor, and we all agree there is, then God, if he exists, must be accomplishing a work through the agency of evil. What is that work God is accomplishing? The Bible tells us it is to see if each one of us will, of our own free will, choose good over evil."

The professor bridles. "As a philosophical scientist, I don't view this matter as having anything to do with any choice; as a realist, I absolutely do not recognize the concept of God or any other theological factor as being part of the world equation because God is not observable."

"I would have thought that the absence of God's moral code in this world is probably one of the most observable phenomena going," the Christian replies. "Newspapers make billions of dollars reporting it every week! Tell me, professor, Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?" "If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do." "Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?" The professor makes a sucking sound with his teeth and gives his student a silent, stony stare.

"Professor. Since no-one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a priest?" "I'll overlook your impudence in the light of our philosophical discussion. Now, have you quite finished?" the professor hisses. "So you don't accept God's moral code to do what is righteous?" "I believe in what is - that's science!"

"Ah! SCIENCE!" the student's face splits into a grin. "Sir, you rightly state that science is the study of observed phenomena. Science too is a premise which is flawed..." "SCIENCE IS FLAWED..?" the professor splutters. The class is in an uproar. The Christian remains standing until the commotion has subsided. "To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, may I give you an example of what I mean?" The professor wisely keeps silent.

The Christian looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?" The class breaks out in laughter. The Christian points towards his elderly, crumbling tutor. "Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain...felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain?" No one appears to have done so.

The Christian shakes his head sadly. "It appears no-one here has had any sensory perception of the professor's brain whatsoever. Well, according to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science, the professor has no brain."

The class is in chaos. The Christian sits...because that is what a chair is for. An atheist has a reason, but no hope for his reason. A hypocrite has a hope, but no reason for his hope. A Christian has a reason for his hope and a hope for his reason; and, I might add: Life with Christ is an endless hope. Without Christ is a hopeless end.

Author unknown

[SaskMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Without Christ is a hopeless end.



[/ QUOTE ]

Is this a roundabout way of saying my life is a hopeless end Buckee??? You don't wish to say that yourself so you quote some written work. I see your post as a way of bashing us atheists without saying it yourself.

[buckee]

God's word saskman,

There's no such thing as an atheist
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, that their bodies might be dishonored among them.
25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;
32 and, although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.


Who did Jesus come to save ?...the righteous ?
No, he came to save the lost, the unrighteous.

Who is righteous?, Jesus says that no one is good, no not even one. So, who did he come to save?...the lost....ALL of mankind, if it were possible.
I can't speak to anyone's heart, but God can, through his word and through the truths in his word.

[buckee]

Let me relate a little true story from my own life.

My wife has lost 4 children. 2 were lost early in pregnancy and 2 were lost rather later on, both tubal pregnancy. The last tubal pregnancy was a one in a million happening. After losing one child to a tubal pregnancy, she also lost that tube on the side of her Uterus. When she became pregnant again, the fertilized egg found a microscopic piece of where the tube used to be on the damaged side, lodged itself there and began to grow.At about 5 months the baby got so big, and that particular spot in her Uterus was so scared and weak, that the side of her Uterus blew out, and she began to bleed to death internally.
I was off in a logging camp at the time, about 250 miles from home, and the only person with her was my 11/2 year old daughter.
My wife knew something bad had happened inside of her. She was getting very weak and literally crawled across the street to the neighbours house to get help. My daughter followed her, close by her side, without being told a word.
I had to tell you all that, just so you would know why she arrived in the hospital.
They rushed her into emergency and she had a very slow pulse rate. By the time they got her on the table, she was dead. She was dead for a couple of minutes, and then her heart started beating again. All signs of life as we know it, had ceased during this time. According to what we know scientifically, she no longer existed for a couple of minutes there.

Now this is the amazing part. When she got into the recovery room and the nurse was standing by her, as she was coming around, My wife said "Why did you cut my tail-bone?"
The nurse said "What do you mean, cut your tail-bone"
My wife said, " When you slid that metal plate under me, you cut my tail-bone"

The nurse kind of looked astonished and called the doctor in.
She said to my wife "Now tell the doctor, what you just told me"
and she repeated herself.
The doctor said, "How could you possibly know that. You were under anaesthetic at the time, plus you were clinically dead at the time"
My wife said "I don't know how to explain this, but I was up in the air, in the corner of the room, watching you work on me. It was really strange, because although I knew I was still me, I wasn't in that body down there any more, and someone was there with me, but I didn't even look to see who it was."..............."Then, all of a sudden, I was going back down into my body and I don't remember anything after that. "
All the doctor and nurse could do was smile and look at each other and my wife in amazement.

Something happened that day, that not only defies science, but it also defies the atheist thinking that once your dead, that's it, game over, end of show, lights out. That experience proved to me that man does have a spirit, that is a living entity, independent of this body that it lives in. That not only defies science, but it also defies the simplicity thinking of atheism and evolution.
It throws a real wrench into evolution, because now we have not only the physical life to take into consideration, but a living spirit life, independent of the physical life.

[ParrotHead]

Why would anyone be offended by anything?

It's their shallow little way of standing up and trying to be noticed by anyone that is stupid enough to listen.

[buckee]

The above happening in our lives, is just something that made us both seek God.
My wife and I both come from a past of drunkenness, drugs and what have you.
When that day came, that my wife and I confessed or sins and asked Jesus to come into our hearts and and not only save us by his grace, but help us change our lives ..He did come in. I felt him come into my heart and my life. He changed me. It was like I finally could see and hear for the first time.
That was over 18 years ago now.
I have proven two things in my life. (1)I have proven to myself that I am a weak, rather pathetic person and would sooner serve myself than an unseen God .(2) I can not live my life now without Him.
I live my life for a different reason now, it's not about me, it's about him.
Am I perfect...NO
Am I saved ...YES


Are you perfect....NO
Do you want to be saved ....?? (maybe not quite yet eh)

[dogdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Without Christ is a hopeless end.



[/ QUOTE ]

Is this a roundabout way of saying my life is a hopeless end Buckee??? You don't wish to say that yourself so you quote some written work. I see your post as a way of bashing us atheists without saying it yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sask---If your belief is that when you die that's it--nothing happens except you get buried, then that would be to me a hopeless ending. The knowing that I am going to heaven to spend Eternity with my Creator is to me "The Meaning of Life"---without that I would feel I would have a hopeless ending.

God created man with a mind---a mind to make choices. Those choices are where the majority of evil in this world comes from. I can't explain why a child develops cancer and dies and I am sure if that happened to my child I would feel angry towards my Creator. God didn't make us robots to follow his command--he gave us a choice to accept him--and a choice to sin. I have plenty of sin that has been washed away--but every sin I committed was a choice made by me.

The hardest part I have understanding of atheism is why in the world would anyone even want to take the chance of spending eternity any where else but with the Almighty!

todd

[buckee]

[ QUOTE ]
Is this a roundabout way of saying my life is a hopeless end Buckee??? You don't wish to say that yourself so you quote some written work. I see your post as a way of bashing us atheists without saying it yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

You said your life was a hopeless end, before I ever did.
[ QUOTE ]
I believe that when i die I am gone, my life is over and that is that. I woin't worry about the end b/c when the end comes I will not know

[/ QUOTE ]

[SaskMan]

[ QUOTE ]
God's word saskman,

[/ QUOTE ]

Who says???? A book that was written long before any of our time??????? I will never buy it.

[SaskMan]

You guys can push your thoughts and beliefs towards me all you want, you won't change my opinion.

You can tell me stories and reasons why you are a believer, you won't change my opinion.

You can assumme b/c I am a non believer that my life is a hopeless end, I'll disagree. Yes it'll end but hopelessly?? I don't think so, I'll have loved and been loved, spent time doing what I learned to love in life. Had children to carry on my memory and to have children of their own but in time I'll be gone and forgotten. How often do you think of your grandfather's grandfather??? In time we'll all be forgotten. You can think my life is a hopeless end, I'll choose to think otherwise.

Just don't think I'm a bad person b/c I'm an atheist. I'm a good father, a good husband, a good son, a good brother, a good school teacher, a good friend and a good neighbour. I don't agree with your beliefs but I don't judge people based on their beliefs, if I did, one of my closest friends would not be a friend at all. Alot of times you Christians give the impression that you arte better than us who are not believers and though you may believe I'm not sure if that constitutes as reason enough for you to be any better that I or any other non believer.

[dogdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
Just don't think I'm a bad person b/c I'm an atheist. I'm a good father, a good husband, a good son, a good brother, a good school teacher, a good friend and a good neighbour. I don't agree with your beliefs but I don't judge people based on their beliefs, if I did, one of my closest friends would not be a friend at all. Alot of times you Christians give the impression that you arte better than us who are not believers and though you may believe I'm not sure if that constitutes as reason enough for you to be any better that I or any other non believer.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sask---I think you're totally off base here partner. I have never thought you were a bad person and I have never thought as myself or any other person better than you. I don't know you personally but I am sure you are a great father, great husband, great teacher---I haven't seen anyone on here accuse you of being otherwise. I am just sharing my beliefs just like you are.

take care
todd

[fisherguy]

In short, i believe there is no god because to me it seems like fiction. I am not offended by Christianity, i am offended when christians try to tell me i am a sinner, a heathen, a bad person, or when they try to cram religion down my throat and convert me. I let you have your beliefs, so how about you let me have mine.